Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

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Kishkumen
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Kishkumen »

Marcus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:08 am
I appreciate your opinion on this, but I would disagree slightly with your language. When you say “it is assumed that this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it…” you seem to be implying that that is an agreed upon assumption, when it is not. It is your assumption, which I respect, but it’s not mine.
I could have said by many. I certainly did not assume it was your assumption. You weren't even involved in my exchange, so I would not have thought to account for your views.

:D
Yes, hardy har. It is the case, however, that many in the West traditionally viewed the cosmos as intelligent in some way. Hence the logos. That would not be my "big pronouncement."
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Kishkumen »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 1:31 pm
And this is where we part ways. I'm still unsure of what you mean by "spiritual" and if there is really any good basis or reason to think there is a spiritual realm somehow greater than what we have here, or as you put it "this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it in a fundamental way". It feels like assumption or explanation to justify believing in that which is not real. That's what I'd think of as make-believe, or a realm that people really want, for various reasons, and yet can't justify rationally. As I've said, and I realize I'm just repeating myself, described in different ways, I'm not sure why anyone feels like there is reason for this type of thinking. Earlier, or in another thread, you suggested a naturalist only view is lacking imagination. I don't think there is any merit to that accusation. It sounds like an accusation born out of fear of losing a pretend world to me. Anyone can imagine anything they want whether naturalist or not. ITs a matter of whether one thinks whatever they imagine should be a basis for reality or not, in my mind. I just don't think an imagined world is real simply because people want it to be (and I really wonder based on the reasons given if it is a good place anyway).
Sure it seems like that because you have adopted an epistemology that dismisses it at the outset. The existence of the spiritual comes from human experience of the spiritual. If certain forms of human experience are excluded from serious consideration, then of course you can say there is no good reason to think there is a spiritual realm. You just need to start with the right definitions to reach the conclusion you want. You will find lots of support from the materialists and devotees to scientism in our age. If you want to understand why people long believed in the existence of divinities and the like, then examine the many testimonies across the ages of the experiences of such beings. You can allege that everyone made it up because they were not as enlightened as you are in this age, where you can dismiss things according to your definitions of reality and rationality, or you can accept that there may be something behind all of those experiences.

I fall into the latter category. I think there may be something behind those experiences. I may not understand it, but I don't dismiss it because I do not understand it. Every model of the world is only a model. We should not assume that our model is the final say. The likelihood that there is much we do not understand about reality is virtually certain, if anything is certain. If there is a phenomenon we cannot account for yet but has much evidence of some kind informing the credence it widely receives, then it may not be unwise to say that the jury is out, instead of rushing to pontificate on reality and rationality as arguments for why all of that stuff is make-believe and not true.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Marcus »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:45 pm
Marcus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:08 am
I appreciate your opinion on this, but I would disagree slightly with your language. When you say “it is assumed that this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it…” you seem to be implying that that is an agreed upon assumption, when it is not. It is your assumption, which I respect, but it’s not mine.
I could have said by many. I certainly did not assume it was your assumption. You weren't even involved in my exchange, so I would not have thought to account for your views.
Of course not, why would I think that? My point was you said “it is assumed,” which I took to mean the assumption was generalized and agreed upon. I only said I didn’t agree to indicate not everyone agrees with your assumption. My actual opinions are of course inconsequential to the discussion! :D

Thank you for the clarification.
Marcus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:08 am
…But it looks kinda dumb for you to make big pronouncements based on your limited experience. This is what I mean by epistemic humility….
:D
Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:45 pm
Yes, hardy har. It is the case, however, that many in the West traditionally viewed the cosmos as intelligent in some way. Hence the logos. That would not be my "big pronouncement."
Sorry, I meant no offense! I just thought it was an interesting definition in a thread where people are mostly posting their understanding, which is at least partly based on their experience, but also on their efforts to understand what others experience.
Last edited by Marcus on Tue May 17, 2022 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Kishkumen »

Marcus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:58 pm
Of course not, why would I think that? My point was you said “it is assumed,” which I took to mean the assumption was generalized and agreed upon. I only said I didn’t agree to indicate not everyone agrees with your assumption. My actual opinions are of course inconsequential to the discussion! :D

Thank you for the clarification.
Yes, it has been a widely held assumption, and it is one that continues to be widely held. Very many if not most people adhere to some version of it, although there is a growing number of people who do not.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by dastardly stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:58 pm

Sure it seems like that because you have adopted an epistemology that dismisses it at the outset. The existence of the spiritual comes from human experience of the spiritual. If certain forms of human experience are excluded from serious consideration, then of course you can say there is no good reason to think there is a spiritual realm. You just need to start with the right definitions to reach the conclusion you want. You will find lots of support from the materialists and devotees to scientism in our age. If you want to understand why people long believed in the existence of divinities and the like, then examine the many testimonies across the ages of the experiences of such beings. You can allege that everyone made it up because they were not as enlightened as you are in this age, where you can dismiss things according to your definitions of reality and rationality, or you can accept that there may be something behind all of those experiences.

I fall into the latter category. I think there may be something behind those experiences. I may not understand it, but I don't dismiss it because I do not understand it. Every model of the world is only a model. We should not assume that our model is the final say. The likelihood that there is much we do not understand about reality is virtually certain, if anything is certain. If there is a phenomenon we cannot account for yet but has much evidence of some kind informing the credence it widely receives, then it may not be unwise to say that the jury is out, instead of rushing to pontificate on reality and rationality as arguments for why all of that stuff is make-believe and not true.
I disagree that I've adopted an epistemology that dismisses it from the outset. I dismiss it simply because there is no good reason to assume it is so.

You say, "The existence of the spiritual comes from human experience of the spiritual."

I can't even find meaning in that sentence. WHat is spiritual, how can we know there is a spiritual realm? Humans experience spiritual therefore there is spritual existence?

As you've noted, we're not going to resolve the conflict here and people will likely disagree forever. But, that also means, I suppose, I'll have as much time to repeat my points as you do yours. So...

Yes, spiritual is possible. I don't deny that. What I deny, again, is that people imagining a spirit realm and therefore conclude it is real, all because they imagine it. Then people turn around and use non-words like scientism or categorize materialism as something other than just naturalism.
If you want to understand why people long believed in the existence of divinities and the like, then examine the many testimonies across the ages of the experiences of such beings.
As you well know its impossible to understand why people believe what they do for all time. So many believed things before recorded history. And most of history is lost to us. And there is nothing wrong with pointing out that belief is belief and does not define or source reality.

I agree that there is so much out there we don't know. We may never know. But, again, pretending that spiritual realms are real simply because people have imagined them, doesn't really give anyone good reason to think there really is a spirit realm. YOu can say, it's still possible. And I agree. But that possibility doesn't mean it's reasonable to think it true. And again, I think it's a big problem when people think their imagined ideas are just true and real because they imagine them. Yes, if anything is make-believe it is people imagining a world we have never been able to observe and then basing all their ideas of truth on that make believe world. I'll maintain there is something fishy in that world of reasoning until the day I die, I suppose. I mean I'm open to correction, so if ever such a world presents itself, I suppose I'm left wondering why people are so unreasonable. Yes, we're all unreasonable and I'm no different on that front. But it seems like a noble thing to pursue reason rather than throw it out because not everyone is reasonable or perfectly so.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Marcus wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:08 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:25 pm
… That does not detract from its interest, in my view. Spiritual is not a rhetorical gesture, in my opinion. I mean, it can be, but I think that behind this there is a recognition that the cosmos is so much more than what we can grasp with our finite abilities but that we can nevertheless sense or experience a glimpse of under the right circumstances. It is assumed that this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it in a fundamental way. Of course, we can only grasp it in our very limited way, and every attempt to do so will bear the fingerprints of our inadequate efforts. As part of the human sphere, these efforts will also be subject to all of the vagaries and vicissitudes of human life, including abuse at the hands of the unscrupulous. Still, I don't think that it is necessary to abandon the project altogether because it is inevitably entangled in human limitations.
I appreciate your opinion on this, but I would disagree slightly with your language. When you say “it is assumed that this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it…” you seem to be implying that that is an agreed upon assumption, when it is not. It is your assumption, which I respect, but it’s not mine.
I watched a Lex Fridman interview of the philosopher Philip Goff here ref pan psychism here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCdV6BMMpOo

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_ ... ilosopher)

I also watched a David Chalmers interview where he touches on the same themes. For the uninitiated:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsyc ... %20dualism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers

Anyway, Kish, are you talking about ‘universal complexity’ and that there’s a sort of universal pan psychism at play we’re not totally privy to?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 7:25 pm

[...] Spiritual is not a rhetorical gesture, in my opinion. I mean, it can be, but I think that behind this there is a recognition that the cosmos is so much more than what we can grasp with our finite abilities but that we can nevertheless sense or experience a glimpse of under the right circumstances. It is assumed that this larger reality is intelligent and far greater than ourselves, but that we are connected to it in a fundamental way. Of course, we can only grasp it in our very limited way, and every attempt to do so will bear the fingerprints of our inadequate efforts. As part of the human sphere, these efforts will also be subject to all of the vagaries and vicissitudes of human life, including abuse at the hands of the unscrupulous. Still, I don't think that it is necessary to abandon the project altogether because it is inevitably entangled in human limitations.
Speaking just for this guy (Chap), I'd say that when I take time to contemplate the existence of my own consciousness, that is about all the wonder and astonishment I can handle. Beyond that, there appear to be other "selves" too ... there I am lost in uncomprehending amazement and delight (hello, how are you all doing?). I know a fair bit of science, and there is real understanding and power there. But none of the science I know does anything to explain my astonishing experience as a conscious observer of the world around me.

That's as far as I feel able to go ...
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Don Bradley »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:14 am

I would be truly happy to for you amigo. Any particular time? We can figure out a time I am more than sure.
I'm busy with a new project step for the next three weeks, so mid-June would probably be best for me.

PM me and we can figure out the best contact information to use.

Don
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Don Bradley »

dastardly stem wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:27 pm

I disagree that I've adopted an epistemology that dismisses it from the outset. I dismiss it simply because there is no good reason to assume it is so.
DS,

I think perhaps this very statement on your part strengthens Kishkumen's observation. In insisting that spiritual experience has to have good reason to validate it outside that experience, this implies that you dismiss the epistemic value of spiritual experience from the outset.

Most human worldviews have embraced such experience and rational discourse as complementary ways of knowing.

Don
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Don Bradley »

Chap wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 7:19 pm

Speaking just for this guy (Chap), I'd say that when I take time to contemplate the existence of my own consciousness, that is about all the wonder and astonishment I can handle. Beyond that, there appear to be other "selves" too ... there I am lost in uncomprehending amazement and delight (hello, how are you all doing?). I know a fair bit of science, and there is real understanding and power there. But none of the science I know does anything to explain my astonishing experience as a conscious observer of the world around me.

That's as far as I feel able to go ...
Yes! And that is an enormous distance to go!

Many spiritual practices take this as their starting point, such as forms of mindfulness meditation that make us aware of awareness itself. And it is also, regardless of whether our theories of the world acknowledge it (as materialism does not), our intellectual starting point.

Our knowledge of reality goes well beyond bits of matter. It all starts from this astonishing consciousness of ours, which itself has implications for understanding total reality. Whatever the nature of the reality in which we exist, the thing we best know about it is that that it includes consciousness. In fact, we don't strictly know that it contains anything other than consciousness, since our experience of anything that is supposedly distinct from consciousness just is a consciousness of that supposedly distinct thing.

So, dealing, intellectually and spiritually, with consciousness is one of the most profound and important things we can do.

Don
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