Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

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MormonDiscussionInc
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Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by MormonDiscussionInc »

How do you reconcile either of the two most accepted faithful solutions (Missing Scroll theory and Catalyst Theory) to the Book of Abraham in light of the following?

Multiple sources show that when Joseph Smith examined the Kinder hook plates, he consulted the GAEL (Book of Abraham Document named the Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language)

“The gentlemen who found them were / unconnected with this church but have brought them to Joseph / Smith for examination & translation a large number of Citizens / here have seen them and compared the characters with / those on the Egyptian papyrus which is now in this / city. I have no time for particulars but you will hear more soon on this subject. I must now notice your letter. / 2 of the 3 witnesses to the Book of Mormon have been cast off / from the church for some misconduct but have never / denied their testimony. we hope they will be restored again / soon. The other (Martin Harris) is still in the church” - Parley P. and Orson Pratt’s May 7th 1843 Letter to John Van Cott

(Check the newspaper image included)

And

Analysis from historians Mark Ashurst-McGee and Don Bradley indicate that the translated “portion” mentioned by William Clayton and Parley P. Pratt comes from a single “boat-shaped” character in the Egyptian Alphabet (a vaguely similar character appears on one of the Kinderhook Plates facsimiles).

Once you have Joseph Smith relying on the GAEL, the "Missing Papyrus" Theory is dead in the water. And once you see Joseph Smith using a specific symbol and getting a specific translation, the Catalyst Theory is shanked & bleeding out. Again the catalyst theory seems to take on significant water if we have Joseph claiming to receive a specific translation to a specific symbol

Please do help me make one of these theories hold water in light of the evidence?
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Neb

Post by Shulem »

ONE (1) of the 24 characters you've circled is the neb (basket), the character in the middle of the document. The other circled characters are mouths and one (1) eyeball at far center left. This is not a good example to use in comparing the character on the Kinderhook plate. You should have consulted an expert and use proper terms when defining these matters. So, in that, it was quite disappointing in the podcast. I was cringing.

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Basket = neb (lord, all, any, every, etc)

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Mouth

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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

I’m calling on Don Bradley to come to this thread, and lay out an apologetic. Don, this is your moment, your chance to reconcile what is in reality a silver bullet with regard to Joseph Smith’s prophetic claims and ‘translations’. This is the place where people will engage you earnestly, and help you refine your approach to these particular issues.

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Re: Neb

Post by MormonDiscussionInc »

Shulem wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 3:42 pm
ONE (1) of the 24 characters you've circled is the neb (basket), the character in the middle of the document. The other circled characters are mouths and one (1) eyeball at far center left. This is not a good example to use in comparing the character on the Kinderhook plate. You should have consulted an expert and use proper terms when defining these matters. So, in that, it was quite disappointing in the podcast. I was cringing.

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Basket = neb (lord, all, any, every, etc)

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Shulem, thank you for your thoughts. I am appreciative of the correction. While this may give the apologists a chance to obfuscate the issue, I don't think it actually helps. The reality is that the symbol is a real Egyptian symbol. The fact that Joseph lists the symbol shows he saw it somewhere (Amenhotep papyrus). This symbol and all of the other symbols on the Gael have a direct translation and that is enough to rationally end up at the same place. Sorry as I working on the fly as Vogel was imparting knowledge and I was trying to discover if we could see this symbol on documents Joseph Smith had.
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by MormonDiscussionInc »

Shulem I didn't know if you read my last comment but was hoping you would speak to whether you thought the crux of the issue is diminished by the fact that the symbol isn't on the Book of Abraham papyrus and may not be prevalent on the missing papyri?

my last comment was - "Shulem, thank you for your thoughts. I am appreciative of the correction. While this may give the apologists a chance to obfuscate the issue, I don't think it actually helps. The reality is that the symbol is a real Egyptian symbol. The fact that Joseph lists the symbol shows he saw it somewhere (Amenhotep papyrus). This symbol and all of the other symbols on the Gael have a direct translation and that is enough to rationally end up at the same place. Sorry as I working on the fly as Vogel was imparting knowledge and I was trying to discover if we could see this symbol on documents Joseph Smith had."
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Moksha »

Precedence for the Catalyst Theory was set in November 1935 in the football game between Ohio State and Notre Dame, when Irish halfback Bill Shakespeare found receiver Wayne Millner for a 19-yard, game-winning touchdown. It was the birth of the Hail Mary pass.

Mormon precedence for this Catalyst Theory took place in December 1980, when Brigham Young University quarterback Jim McMahon threw a 41-yard touchdown pass to tight end Clay Brown to defeat Southern Methodist University in the 1980 Holiday Bowl. BYU was able to pull out a 46-45 victory when four minutes before BYU had been down by 20 points. They threw caution to the wind and hurled wild catalyst theories across the field.

Forget the playbook of the clunky apologists and turn to Cosmo the Cougar for an explanation that defies logic and questioning!
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by Shulem »

MormonDiscussionInc wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 8:48 pm
Shulem I didn't know if you read my last comment but was hoping you would speak to whether you thought the crux of the issue is diminished by the fact that the symbol isn't on the Book of Abraham papyrus and may not be prevalent on the missing papyri?

I just started reading Bradley's and McGee's paper the other day and promised Bradley that I would tell him my thoughts on the matter sometime this year in the Celestial Forum. I can see that Bradley has also discussed the NEB and compares it to the character in Smith's Egyptian Alphabet. But I've not read or digested his material yet.

There are neb characters on the Joseph Smith papyrus now extant. Clearly, they are on the Breathing Permit of Hôr and Ritner has translated "lord" in multiple places included Facsimile No. 3 Fig. 1 although the original vignette is no longer extant. The neb is also found in the Hypocephalus, figures 10 & 16.

Let me think on this matter more and I'll get back with you.
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by dan vogel »

MormonDiscussionInc wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 8:48 pm
Shulem I didn't know if you read my last comment but was hoping you would speak to whether you thought the crux of the issue is diminished by the fact that the symbol isn't on the Book of Abraham papyrus and may not be prevalent on the missing papyri?

my last comment was - "Shulem, thank you for your thoughts. I am appreciative of the correction. While this may give the apologists a chance to obfuscate the issue, I don't think it actually helps. The reality is that the symbol is a real Egyptian symbol. The fact that Joseph lists the symbol shows he saw it somewhere (Amenhotep papyrus). This symbol and all of the other symbols on the Gael have a direct translation and that is enough to rationally end up at the same place. Sorry as I working on the fly as Vogel was imparting knowledge and I was trying to discover if we could see this symbol on documents Joseph Smith had."
You did fine Bill. As I mentioned, Part 1 of the Alphabets deal with Katumin and the Egyptian royal family, which expands on the Katumin passage in the Valuable Discovery notebooks. These notebooks copy characters from the lost Amenhotep papyrus fragments. In these notebooks you will find the boat-like character. It doesn't matter what it is in Egyptian, but what Joseph Smith perceived it as. He didn't know what he was looking at and couldn't distinguish similar characters with different meanings. The character in question is 1.11.
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Re: Missing Scroll Theory & Catalyst Theory in light of Mormonism Live

Post by High Spy »

dan vogel wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 11:24 pm
MormonDiscussionInc wrote:
Thu May 12, 2022 8:48 pm
Shulem I didn't know if you read my last comment but was hoping you would speak to whether you thought the crux of the issue is diminished by the fact that the symbol isn't on the Book of Abraham papyrus and may not be prevalent on the missing papyri?

my last comment was - "Shulem, thank you for your thoughts. I am appreciative of the correction. While this may give the apologists a chance to obfuscate the issue, I don't think it actually helps. The reality is that the symbol is a real Egyptian symbol. The fact that Joseph lists the symbol shows he saw it somewhere (Amenhotep papyrus). This symbol and all of the other symbols on the Gael have a direct translation and that is enough to rationally end up at the same place. Sorry as I working on the fly as Vogel was imparting knowledge and I was trying to discover if we could see this symbol on documents Joseph Smith had."
You did fine Bill. As I mentioned, Part 1 of the Alphabets deal with Katumin and the Egyptian royal family, which expands on the Katumin passage in the Valuable Discovery notebooks. These notebooks copy characters from the lost Amenhotep papyrus fragments. In these notebooks you will find the boat-like character. It doesn't matter what it is in Egyptian, but what Joseph Smith perceived it as. He didn't know what he was looking at and couldn't distinguish similar characters with different meanings. The character in question is 1.11.

Alphabets-source-022.jpg
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