Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

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Mixman76
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Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

Post by Mixman76 »

Hello smart people! Please forgive my question, but I haven’t found good answers to a query I have. I have been reading Dan Vogel’s new book on Book of Abraham apologetics and similar YouTube videos on the matter. There is much discussion about the Egyptian characters and their “translations”, dissections and interpretations in the KEP and GAEL. We get words from Joseph Smith like Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota, etc.
Are these “words” Egyptian? Are they absolute gibberish? I see so much very scholarly sounding debate and analysis around these words being the translations of the characters on the JSP, but is there merit to this study? Please forgive my ignorance, I’m trying to learn more.
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Re: Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Try wading through this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=114231

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Re: Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

Post by Chap »

Mixman76 wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 6:34 pm
Hello smart people! Please forgive my question, but I haven’t found good answers to a query I have. I have been reading Dan Vogel’s new book on Book of Abraham apologetics and similar YouTube videos on the matter. There is much discussion about the Egyptian characters and their “translations”, dissections and interpretations in the KEP and GAEL. We get words from Joseph Smith like Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota, etc.
Are these “words” Egyptian? Are they absolute gibberish? I see so much very scholarly sounding debate and analysis around these words being the translations of the characters on the JSP, but is there merit to this study? Please forgive my ignorance, I’m trying to learn more.
I am certainly no expert, but I have in the past spent some time (just for fun) gaining the ability to read relatively simple hieroglyphic inscriptions in Middle Egyptian. (Proviso: I have probably forgotten most of it now through lack of practice.) I have also consulted a colleague who is linguistically expert in this area.

On that basis, I think it can be said with certainty that words like "Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota" simply bear no resemblance to the pronunciation of ancient Egyptian as reconstructed by modern scholars. While that reconstruction is not necessarily exactly the same as the sounds that a person in ancient Egypt might have made at any given period, the degree of assurance is sufficient to dismiss Smith's words as imaginary. Which is hardly a surprise ...
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Mixman76
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Re: Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

Post by Mixman76 »

Chap wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:21 pm
Mixman76 wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 6:34 pm
Hello smart people! Please forgive my question, but I haven’t found good answers to a query I have. I have been reading Dan Vogel’s new book on Book of Abraham apologetics and similar YouTube videos on the matter. There is much discussion about the Egyptian characters and their “translations”, dissections and interpretations in the KEP and GAEL. We get words from Joseph Smith like Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota, etc.
Are these “words” Egyptian? Are they absolute gibberish? I see so much very scholarly sounding debate and analysis around these words being the translations of the characters on the JSP, but is there merit to this study? Please forgive my ignorance, I’m trying to learn more.
I am certainly no expert, but I have in the past spent some time (just for fun) gaining the ability to read relatively simple hieroglyphic inscriptions in Middle Egyptian. (Proviso: I have probably forgotten most of it now through lack of practice.) I have also consulted a colleague who is linguistically expert in this area.

On that basis, I think it can be said with certainty that words like "Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota" simply bear no resemblance to the pronunciation of ancient Egyptian as reconstructed by modern scholars. While that reconstruction is not necessarily exactly the same as the sounds that a person in ancient Egypt might have made at any given period, the degree of assurance is sufficient to dismiss Smith's words as imaginary. Which is hardly a surprise ...
Thank you for your response! I supposed this to be the case. I’m just astonished at the brain power and research many have put into explaining the translations, degrees of translations and how they fit together. I by no means want to devalue the time and effort put into this pursuit, and I find it fascinating. But if these “words” are simply made-up 19th century attempts at reconstructing ancient Egyptian, and demonstrably so, why so much study and apologetics? Can’t we just say, “This is utter gibberish. This is NOT real and Joseph Smith and his colleagues are fraudulent.” I mean, I understand that believers want to defend their faith and prophet, but this just isn’t real and true translations. It’s just not.
Again, apologies for my simplistic view of this matter. I only have so much free time to spend on my Mormon history hobby.
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Re: Egyptian words and names in KEP, GAEL etc..

Post by Philo Sofee »

Mixman76 wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:33 pm
Chap wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 7:21 pm


I am certainly no expert, but I have in the past spent some time (just for fun) gaining the ability to read relatively simple hieroglyphic inscriptions in Middle Egyptian. (Proviso: I have probably forgotten most of it now through lack of practice.) I have also consulted a colleague who is linguistically expert in this area.

On that basis, I think it can be said with certainty that words like "Zub Zool Oan, Lish-Zi-ho e-oop Iota" simply bear no resemblance to the pronunciation of ancient Egyptian as reconstructed by modern scholars. While that reconstruction is not necessarily exactly the same as the sounds that a person in ancient Egypt might have made at any given period, the degree of assurance is sufficient to dismiss Smith's words as imaginary. Which is hardly a surprise ...
Thank you for your response! I supposed this to be the case. I’m just astonished at the brain power and research many have put into explaining the translations, degrees of translations and how they fit together. I by no means want to devalue the time and effort put into this pursuit, and I find it fascinating. But if these “words” are simply made-up 19th century attempts at reconstructing ancient Egyptian, and demonstrably so, why so much study and apologetics? Can’t we just say, “This is utter gibberish. This is NOT real and Joseph Smith and his colleagues are fraudulent.” I mean, I understand that believers want to defend their faith and prophet, but this just isn’t real and true translations. It’s just not.
Again, apologies for my simplistic view of this matter. I only have so much free time to spend on my Mormon history hobby.
You do not have to apologize for anything. In conjunction with the answer given, I would add, I have not read anywhere of any Egyptologists agreeing that any names or words in the GAEL are actual real Egyptian words. They are simply not Egyptian.
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