It All Comes Down to the Plates

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
dantana
2nd Counselor
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:07 am
Location: Joined 7/18/11, so, apparently, position of senior ranking member.

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by dantana »

Spectator80 wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 9:04 pm
If J.S. had actually uncovered ancient plates, he wouldn't had to have two groups of witnesses. He could simply announce his discovery and
invite the world to see the plates. The enlistment of two groups of friendly witnesses was simply designed to lend some measure of credibility
to the non-availability of the plates.
Sacred plates calls for sacred measures. There is precedent for this you know. That is, god only letting one guy see the goods. Like, for instance, the ten commands tablets. Er, wait. Maybe not. Ok, how bout the Holy Grail - Nope. Oh, I know, the super sacred Egyptian funerary Book of Abraham scrolls. You know, the ones that got trekked around in a sideshow, bought by the Morms, lost by the Morms, burned in the Chicago fire, found by the Smithsonian, then hidden away in Granite Mt. Nosir, I guess not that either.
Nobody gets to be a cowboy forever. - Lee Marvin/Monte Walsh
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5015
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Philo Sofee »

The Holy Grail is not about a physical object. This is a very good example of concretizing the metaphor instead of seeing the idea for what it is attempting to tell us. And there is not just one correct answer so far as I can tell, but that doesn't automatically say it is unreal and therefore not worth looking into. The truths one can learn from Star Wars and The Hobbit have fundamentally nothing whatsoever to do with our own physical reality, yet to simply refuse to learn from it and never watch it because it is not real is truly quite myopic, if ya get my drift. Nonfiction is not the only option for getting at truth in other words.
User avatar
dantana
2nd Counselor
Posts: 420
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:07 am
Location: Joined 7/18/11, so, apparently, position of senior ranking member.

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by dantana »

I think I see the problem. I get all of my grail information from Dan Brown, John Cleese and Indiana Jones. So, there's that.

I'd wager there is also some debate as to whether the 10 commands tablets were a real thing too. What do you believe Philo? I haven't seen you post your worldview on the 'what do people on here believe' thread.
Nobody gets to be a cowboy forever. - Lee Marvin/Monte Walsh
Spectator80
Nursery
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2022 4:56 pm

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Spectator80 »

It requires a suspension of disbelief; i.e., God and His Son appearing to a young boy. Little wonder that it took years for J.S. to provide
a coherent account of what actually happened.
Chap
God
Posts: 2308
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:42 am
Location: On the imaginary axis

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Chap »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 2:50 pm
It all comes down to the Book of Mormon itself. Either you value what is contained therein or you do not.
Do I value the Book of Mormon? Depends on what it is.

A: If it is a translation into English recounting the history and religious views of people who actually lived in the ancient Americas, I would value it exceedingly, even making allowance for the strong possibility that it may not be the kind of translation that modern scholarship would prefer.

B: If it is simply an example of early 19th century American pseudepigrapha (writing that purports to be of a nature, usually in its authorship, which it is not), written in imitation 'Bible English' and expressing the religious opinions of an imaginative but not very educated writer in upstate New York, then I would value it as a curiosity, nothing more.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by dastardly stem »

Chap wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 4:08 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 2:50 pm
It all comes down to the Book of Mormon itself. Either you value what is contained therein or you do not.
Do I value the Book of Mormon? Depends on what it is.

A: If it is a translation into English recounting the history and religious views of people who actually lived in the ancient Americas, I would value it exceedingly, even making allowance for the strong possibility that it may not be the kind of translation that modern scholarship would prefer.

B: If it is simply an example of early 19th century American pseudepigrapha (writing that purports to be of a nature, usually in its authorship, which it is not), written in imitation 'Bible English' and expressing the religious opinions of an imaginative but not very educated writer in upstate New York, then I would value it as a curiosity, nothing more.
Agreed with Chap.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
God
Posts: 2259
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:38 pm

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by dastardly stem »

Spectator80 wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 3:28 pm
It requires a suspension of disbelief; i.e., God and His Son appearing to a young boy. Little wonder that it took years for J.S. to provide
a coherent account of what actually happened.
Yes.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
BeNotDeceived
Priest
Posts: 307
Joined: Wed May 19, 2021 7:52 pm

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by BeNotDeceived »

Not only were there no plates present, but consider this... why would God have all of these ancient prophets write down everything they allegedly did on heavy gold plates which would have been impossible to transport only to not have Smith use any of them during the 'translation' process but orally dictate a story out of a hat??? :lol:
drumdude
God
Posts: 5213
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by drumdude »

Don't you know Dan Pasterson has already beaten down this issue? You're like zombies, resurrecting a long dead and dealt with issue from the grave.


At least, when Dan asserts that these issues have been dealt with to the satisfaction of an unbiased impartial observer, that must make it true.


Here's his whinging summary of this thread:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... about.html


A few days ago, I saw a discussion (or, perhaps more accurately, an instance of what often passes there for a “discussion”) over at an overtly anti-Mormon (and very largely, though not entirely, atheistic) message board. It focused on the golden plates that were purportedly connected with the Book of Mormon. I found it amusing for a number of reasons, but one of the principal reasons for my amusement is that these are people who (I’ve observed them for years) proudly insist on their uniquely powerful commitment to evidence and rationality. (I won’t bother to note, below, where supporting evidence for the discussants’ claims is absent because non-existent. It’s every single time.) Here are some of the highlights of the conversation, such as it was:

We have only Joseph Smith’s word for the existence of those plates. (See “Witnesses of the Book of Mormon.”)

If God were really involved, he would have made the plates available to absolutely everybody. (See “dubious assumption.”)

Agreeing [!] with the first assertion, above, another rejects the testimony of the Three Witnesses.

Martin Harris was delusional.

Martin Harris had experienced many delusions and cannot be trusted. (See “Martin Harris: Skeptic or Gullible Dupe?”)

David Whitmer was delusional.

David Whitmer was too proud to admit that he had been fooled.

Oliver Cowdery was in on the conspiracy and was a conscious fraud.

All of the Three Witnesses had strong reasons for making their false claims.

Martin Harris didn’t claim to have seen the plates with his literal, physical eyes.

Scholars can’t examine the plates because there never were any plates.

The fact that there were two groups of Witnesses (the Three and the Eight) somehow supports the idea that there were no plates at all.

The overwhelming majority of Earth’s inhabitants have failed to accept the Book of Mormon, and this corroborates the nonexistence of the plates.

The Book of Mormon was written in imitation “Bible English.” (On that purported “Bible English,” see the work of Stan Carmack and Royal Skousen.)


What continually surprises me about such assertions is the sheer, baseless confidence with which they’re laid down, not only as if there were conclusive evidence to prove them true — which, to put it mildly, there is not — but as if, and I’m again being modest here, there weren’t considerable evidence calling them into serious question.

I'd like to publicly apologize for my baseless assertion that the majority of the Earth's inhabitants have failed to accept the Book of Mormon. Just like flat earth, it is possible that we live on a planet where the majority of the Earth's inhabitants are actually secretly believing Mormons. We should teach children that the Earth might be flat, the Native Americans might be Hebrews, and that humans rode dinosaurs in the Garden of Eden (somewhere in Missouri).
User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 1812
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Dr Moore »

Saw this today and it made me laugh out loud. 150 BC.

Image
Post Reply