It All Comes Down to the Plates

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Chap
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Chap »

Omigosh! What a giveaway that is:

MOSIAH CHAPTER 16
God redeems men from their lost and fallen state—Those who are carnal remain as though there were no redemption—Christ brings to pass a resurrection to endless life or to endless damnation. About 148 B.C.

1 And now, it came to pass that after Abinadi had spoken these words he stretched forth his hand and said: The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just.

[...]

6 And now if Christ had not come into the world, speaking of things to come as though they had already come, there could have been no redemption.
7 And if Christ had not risen from the dead, or have broken the bands of death that the grave should have no victory, and that death should have no sting, there could have been no resurrection.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
drumdude
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by drumdude »

The Book of Mormon is a worse prequel than Star Wars episodes 1-3... really sloppy writing and world building.
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Rivendale
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Rivendale »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 11:44 pm
The Holy Grail is not about a physical object. This is a very good example of concretizing the metaphor instead of seeing the idea for what it is attempting to tell us. And there is not just one correct answer so far as I can tell, but that doesn't automatically say it is unreal and therefore not worth looking into. The truths one can learn from Star Wars and The Hobbit have fundamentally nothing whatsoever to do with our own physical reality, yet to simply refuse to learn from it and never watch it because it is not real is truly quite myopic, if ya get my drift. Nonfiction is not the only option for getting at truth in other words.
Please give one truth that has been obtained that was or can't be discovered by non fiction.
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Philo Sofee »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:13 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Mon May 16, 2022 11:44 pm
The Holy Grail is not about a physical object. This is a very good example of concretizing the metaphor instead of seeing the idea for what it is attempting to tell us. And there is not just one correct answer so far as I can tell, but that doesn't automatically say it is unreal and therefore not worth looking into. The truths one can learn from Star Wars and The Hobbit have fundamentally nothing whatsoever to do with our own physical reality, yet to simply refuse to learn from it and never watch it because it is not real is truly quite myopic, if ya get my drift. Nonfiction is not the only option for getting at truth in other words.
Please give one truth that has been obtained that was or can't be discovered by non fiction.
The meaning of my own dreams in my own life, and the experience that gives me in my own psychology, for good or ill.
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canpakes
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by canpakes »

drumdude quoting DCP wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:57 am
What continually surprises me about such assertions is the sheer, baseless confidence with which they’re laid down, not only as if there were conclusive evidence to prove them true — which, to put it mildly, there is not — but as if, and I’m again being modest here, there weren’t considerable evidence calling them into serious question.

It’s as if Dan is making an argument against the Book of Mormon’s authenticity.
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Rivendale
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Rivendale »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:34 am
Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:13 am


Please give one truth that has been obtained that was or can't be discovered by non fiction.
The meaning of my own dreams in my own life, and the experience that gives me in my own psychology, for good or ill.
That is experiences not objective truth. Similarly when someone claims that meditation helps them get relief from inner trauma. That isn't a truth but merely a new experience. Internal feelings are not objective truths but rather subjective emotional states. I am not saying any of these things are negative or positive but that they are not representative of justified truths. Truths that are justified with reality independent of a brain interpreting them. Psychological feelings are brain states. The subjective internal diagnosis of these as meaning are not justified true beliefs that match a universal external objective truth.
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Physics Guy
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Physics Guy »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:17 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:34 am
The meaning of my own dreams in my own life, and the experience that gives me in my own psychology, for good or ill.
That is experiences not objective truth.
'Twas no true truth.

August Kekulé famously guessed the ring structure of benzene by having a reverie about a snake biting its own tail. That's a pretty good example of an objective truth discovered through pure fantasy. Obviously the structure of benzene could have been confirmed by more objective methods, as indeed it subsequently was and as of course it had to be. Declaring that only the laboratory results count as "discovery of truth", however, turns the whole discussion of truth and discovery and fiction into a trivial tautology.

All objective things are objective; very good. It might be nice, though, to talk about all the different ways and steps that can be involved in discovering new truths. Do we really have to invent new words to do that, just to sustain the tautology about truth only being reached by objective means?
I was a teenager before it was cool.
Philo Sofee
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Philo Sofee »

Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:17 pm
Philo Sofee wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:34 am

The meaning of my own dreams in my own life, and the experience that gives me in my own psychology, for good or ill.
That is experiences not objective truth. Similarly when someone claims that meditation helps them get relief from inner trauma. That isn't a truth but merely a new experience. Internal feelings are not objective truths but rather subjective emotional states. I am not saying any of these things are negative or positive but that they are not representative of justified truths. Truths that are justified with reality independent of a brain interpreting them. Psychological feelings are brain states. The subjective internal diagnosis of these as meaning are not justified true beliefs that match a universal external objective truth.
But non fiction cannot tell me what my experience means to me. That is the point. I didn't say anything about objective truth. Experiences for me and experiences for you is something that occurs. Subjective experience is the fundamental reality that happens to each one of us regardless of what objective truth is. Subjectivity is not something fake or invented, it happens to everyone, therefore it is in the realm of reality or we wouldn't be experiencing it. It HAPPENS to people. THAT is real also. Objective reality is not the only kind available. Experience is not a mere anything as you put it. It HAPPENS, just like an apple falling off a tree, therefore it is a part of what is real, for the person. The brain is real and can interpret. THAT is a reality. Brain states OCCUR and therefore are very real. Meanings do not have to be justified true beliefs, they are experiences to an individual, and a part of reality. We have no idea what a "universal external objective truth" may be since we do not have a "universal" experience. At the very, very, VERY best, we only know 8% of "universal" anything.
You specifically asked
Please give one truth that has been obtained that was or can't be discovered by non fiction.
I answered correctly, my own dreams and their meanings to me. Non fiction cannot tell me what my own meaning is, ONLY my experience can, and that is real since it is my experience.
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Rivendale
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Rivendale »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 1:10 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 12:17 pm

That is experiences not objective truth.
'Twas no true truth.

August Kekulé famously guessed the ring structure of benzene by having a reverie about a snake biting its own tail. That's a pretty good example of an objective truth discovered through pure fantasy. Obviously the structure of benzene could have been confirmed by more objective methods, as indeed it subsequently was and as of course it had to be. Declaring that only the laboratory results count as "discovery of truth", however, turns the whole discussion of truth and discovery and fiction into a trivial tautology.

All objective things are objective; very good. It might be nice, though, to talk about all the different ways and steps that can be involved in discovering new truths. Do we really have to invent new words to do that, just to sustain the tautology about truth only being reached by objective means?
I am familiar with the Benzene ring example. And I have had "ah ah" solutions to many many problems with absolutely no idea where that solution came from. Much like trying to remember a name and then it seems to magically appear at some strange time. There seems to be a lot of evidence that unconscious problem solving strategies are happening all the time . I don't think that counts as pure fantasy. I think it is a demonstration of the manifestation of a solution in the form of a dream. Did he have the dream absent of any knowledge of molecular structure? No. He was primed to search for the solution after he had already worked on the details. I am talking about new knowledge absent of any human interaction beforehand. There isn't any because humans solve the problems they are faced with. You can't solve the problems you don't know . My challenge is "new" knowledge that is reveled through pure revelation that is unambiguously attribute to a fundamental truth. I don't think there is a case.
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Kishkumen
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Kishkumen »

Well, that is your opinion, and that is all fine and good, but none of us really know where his inspiration came from. Not really.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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