It All Comes Down to the Plates

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Philo Sofee
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Philo Sofee »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:36 am
Gadianton wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 11:23 pm
It doesn't really come down to the plates, because even if the plates were ancient, it's more likely aliens are interfering with humanity than Mormonism is true.

What you said is perfect for apologists to quote.

Apologists: Look, the critics are trying to explain away the Book of Mormon evidences with an awful alien theory.
TBM's will take this tactic no matter what the subject or explanation... they church has trained them to in order to remain in the boat.
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Gadianton
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Gadianton »

Apologists: Look, the critics are trying to explain away the Book of Mormon evidences with an awful alien theory.
That's possible, but I can't fully protect myself from people who can't read.

Do you think I'm wrong?

If Joseph Smith would have given the plates to a museum, and then a couple hundred years later the script was discovered in archeological digs and then deciphered, and the Book of Mormon shown to be a translation, would you think it's more likely that Russel M. Nelson is a prophet of God than aliens are interfering with us?
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Moksha »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 2:20 pm
If Joseph Smith would have given the plates to a museum, and then a couple hundred years later the script was discovered in archeological digs and then deciphered, and the Book of Mormon shown to be a translation, would you think it's more likely that Russel M. Nelson is a prophet of God than aliens are interfering with us?
Even without deciphering, having the actual plates in a museum would help lend credence to the Book of Mormon story.
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Gadianton
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Gadianton »

That's pretty vague. What story?

I can understand given the times that a skeptic back in that day would ask for evidence, where are the plates? Because the barest question was never answered, it's emphasized rhetorically as Joseph Smith is dismissed. But that doesn't mean if one day the plates were put forward that it's a great victory. This is a problem with engaging pseudoscientists and religionists, if they ever are able to bring the barest evidence to the table, the implications are exaggerated. It would be like playing golf with a 54 handicap, finally winning a single game, and declaring victory.
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Physics Guy
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Physics Guy »

But how could the aliens have known?

Actually, though, isn't the official Mormon theory pretty much exactly that a powerful alien has been messing around with us?
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Chap »

Moksha wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 2:35 pm
Gadianton wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 2:20 pm
If Joseph Smith would have given the plates to a museum, and then a couple hundred years later the script was discovered in archeological digs and then deciphered, and the Book of Mormon shown to be a translation, would you think it's more likely that Russel M. Nelson is a prophet of God than aliens are interfering with us?
Even without deciphering, having the actual plates in a museum would help lend credence to the Book of Mormon story.
If any objects purporting to be the gold plates ever turned up, it would nowadays be possibly to identify the source of the gold from which they were made by trace element analysis. This is frequently done in the course of criminal investigations. See here, for instance:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... provenance
Trace element fingerprinting of gold-containing materials is a technique aimed at the determination and quantification of minor and trace components, which allows the unique characterisation of materials from ores and precious metal minerals in flotation concentrates, smelter products, materials at different steps in the refining process, and finally the commercially available products. The use of specially designed statistical software allows allocation of individual analyses to material groups and performs a comparison and aUocation of probabilities for the similarity to other data in the database.

The aim of trace element fingerprinting is equally important for geosciences and forensic science. A n individual mineralisingevent (an event in geological time, sometimes lasting many millions of years in tiie case of gold and very significantiy less for the emplacement of a kimberlite pipe and the introduction of diamonds to the crustal environment) is associated with a unique combination of elements dependent upon, and controlled by, the rocks and physico chemical conditions under which the mineralising fluids migrate, or in which the mineral crystals have formed prior to final ore body emplacement. This chemical signature is then "fossilised" in the newly formed minerals of the ore body while it is still in its natural state and unweathered. A unique chemical signature is superimposed on each mineral species present in each deposit. Because of this, gold from the same deposit will carry a chemical signature that can be related back to the individual mineralisation and emplacement event and which wiU be unique to that event. The uniqueness of this metal assemblage facilitates provenance estabUshment of the gold.
That would at least settle the location of Book of Mormon events, would it not? So long as the gold was not shown to be ultimately of African or Russian provenance, of course ... though no doubt someone at Interpreter would find a way round that.
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Gadianton
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Gadianton »

But how could the aliens have known?

Actually, though, isn't the official Mormon theory pretty much exactly that a powerful alien has been messing around with us?
According to Ancient Aliens (I think, it's been a while) humanity is greatly influenced by aliens if not the direct product of alien design, and so the aliens could know because they architected our history. But what I'm thinking of, is an alien that influenced some guy in 600 BC to write this fantasy out on gold plates, and then later, the alien brought the fabrication to Smith. The plates are ancient, but the Book of Mormon isn't history. Why is that any less likely than the official story? (which has changed a billion times anyway and not always had anything to do with a church or a restoration) I think it's far more likely.

Yes, Mormonism must be an alien cult. And there have been junior apologists who are okay with that -- they say, an advanced god-like alien civilization is what we'd eventually expect from evolution, and so that god species can keep the pyramid going.

My basic point is that in the world of technology where we are at the mercy of far superior beings, we have no idea what their intentions are or what the real plan is; we can't trust what they say. If a being named Aurial really does visit you and tells you he is sent from God to restore a bunch of lost knowledge, you really have no reason to believe it.
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by dantana »

The two main apologies I see from the apologizers for why god removed the plates is;

1. The plates are sacred.

2. If the plates remained it would be too much evidence and everyone would become a believer.

1. There is no precedent for god withholding sacred writings from the people.

2. Even if the plates were here and in the Smithsonian, it doesn't mean that what's written on them has god as the ghost-writer. It has as much value as the ramblings Ted Kaczynski, L. Ron, or Mr. Nightlions' church of one.
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Physics Guy
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Re: It All Comes Down to the Plates

Post by Physics Guy »

I think one reason to prefer a transcendent ground-of-being God over a mere exalted alien is kind of like the reason peasants preferred kings to barons. The bigger power doesn't need as much from you. That Aurial guy could just be trying to get my Manhattan for beads, but what does God need with a starship?
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