How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

[huckelberry]

And, as Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy and others have shown, they tend to arrive at a surprisingly consistent view of that transcendent, and of this world's relationship to it, despite wide variances in their cultural contexts.

Doesn't the Phantom God theory explain the Perennial Philosophy?
https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-God-Neur ... 1633888061

I am very interested in your opinion. I won't try to "debunk" your response, I promise.

Well Stak has sort of opened the pandora box here. Don starts out with something he see as connected to developing spiritual awareness through a discipline as in Mormon commitment and a whole circus gets draggend in. There is Newton, calculus, alchemy, masonry, gnosticism Joseph Campbell and other Hindu inclined folks then Alister Crowley and Ron Hubbard. I am suprised Led Zeppelin has not made an appearance. Following information about the origional Perennial philosophy fellow there are followers of traditional religion , political conservatives a few stray fascists and god only knows what all else.

I think this perception of spiritual meaning is so variegated that I suspect it consists more of human connectivity and not ultimate reality. People connect with each other in different ways which opens different characteristics for spirituality.

I think it is possible that this circus of varieties of experience has some clues to more fundamental spiritual reality but I would not be quick to think I had the fundamental picture all clarified.
...
The phantom god theory may point out some interesting things but I would not begin to presume it covers the whole picture of human spiritual experience. The kind of religious experience it describes is rather foreign to me and different than much of these perennial philosopy concerns I think.

[Don Bradley]

Well Stak has sort of opened the pandora box here. Don starts out with something he see as connected to developing spiritual awareness through a discipline as in Mormon commitment and a whole circus gets draggend in.

Hey Huck,

I know you're making a wider comment here, but I think you may have misread how I was using the Huxley quote. The disciplines referred to are spiritual disciplines like meditation, contemplative prayer, a life of service, etc.

Don

[Don Bradley]

Doesn't the Phantom God theory explain the Perennial Philosophy?
https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-God-Neur ... 1633888061

I am very interested in your opinion. I won't try to "debunk" your response, I promise.

DT,

Sure, I'll bite.

One thing that puzzles me about the question is that the book you're asking about is unpublished and your own earlier posts about it seem to say very little about it, much less lay out the case it is supposed to present.

Biological theories of religion are a dime a dozen. I haven't been impressed with most I've encountered, such as Lionel Tiger's book The Brain that Soothes Itself. The most interesting by far that I've encountered, going back twenty years now, is Stuart Guthrie's Faces in the Clouds.

I had saved Wathey's earlier The Illusion of God's Presence to my Amazon Wishlist several months ago but then read more about it from reviewers and became less interested. From what I've encountered at this point, his hypotheses don't sound interesting enough for me to want to read his books.

I would also question why, if his theories are as scientific as the book descriptions present them as, he's not publishing them through a scientific publisher but, rather, through a publishing house that is ideologically oriented--Prometheus Books, the atheist equivalent to a Christian publishing house.

There is a great deal of scientific study of religion (e.g., authors like Todd Tremlin and Justin Barrett), and most of this gets published by academic publishing houses (e.g., Oxford), so if this guy is needing to go to a non-academic atheist-apologetics publishing house to put out his 'scientific' theory of all religion, I'm uncertain why this should interest me enough for me to take it into consideration.

Just my offhand thoughts.

Don

[doubtingthomas]

There is a great deal of scientific study of religion (e.g., authors like Todd Tremlin and Justin Barrett), and most of this gets published by academic publishing houses (e.g., Oxford), so if this guy is needing to go to a non-academic atheist-apologetics publishing house to put out his 'scientific' theory of all religion, I'm uncertain why this should interest me enough for me to take it into consideration.

Just my offhand thoughts.

Don

It makes perfect sense. We should always be skeptical about theories not published in peer-reviewed journals.

I do have a few more questions, I'll stop bothering you I promise.

Do you think good energy, luck charms, FLDS testimony, witchcraft, the Lady of the Holy Death, DMT aliens, dowsing, alien abductions, Bigfoot, and reincarnation are some form of spiritual truth? Why are the main world religions a reliable spiritual reality? And why are you convinced that God is real?

The phantom god theory may point out some interesting things but I would not begin to presume it covers the whole picture of human spiritual experience. The kind of religious experience it describes is rather foreign to me and different than much of these perennial philosopy concerns I think.

Makes sense. Why do you think DMT is more successful in converting atheists?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345112/

[huckelberry]

The phantom god theory may point out some interesting things but I would not begin to presume it covers the whole picture of human spiritual experience. The kind of religious experience it describes is rather foreign to me and different than much of these perennial philosopy concerns I think.

Makes sense. Why do you think DMT is more successful in converting atheists?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345112/

I suppose you could try it and discover. I have no experience on the matter. A chemical altered experience is still composed of the ideas and experience in your brain but processed differently where different relationships might be seen. I remember a discussion I had long ago with a Bahai believer who admitted he first came to believe God existed through an experience with LSD. I have heard of other people reporting the same. The person I was speaking with, though articulate, did not or could not really explain beyond stating that he became aware of God in some direct sense. My own experiences with LSD did not have that result. I was atheist at the time and had no temptation to change from my experience.

I had only a few LSD experiences which were good and at least suggested spiritual awareness. On the other hand the last was a bit chaotic and resulted in emotional distress and fear which lasted for months. I have no inclination to pursue further exploration of that sort. (in retrospect there were real world stressors which I did not understand completely and did not know how to deal with. LSD was not a help)

[huckelberry]

Well Stak has sort of opened the pandora box here. Don starts out with something he see as connected to developing spiritual awareness through a discipline as in Mormon commitment and a whole circus gets draggend in.

Hey Huck,

I know you're making a wider comment here, but I think you may have misread how I was using the Huxley quote. The disciplines referred to are spiritual disciplines like meditation, contemplative prayer, a life of service, etc.

Don

Don, perhaps I could have been clearer. I think you were clear enough in your suggestion. I understood Stak to be introducing his own concerns by observing that the idea of perennial philosophy has a wider history than the part you were referring to . He may have been interested in bring up a group of subjects beyond what you were relating to yourself. There could be a group of potentially interesting questions brought up. What is occult? What sort of occult connection is there in Mormonism? What would such a connection mean? What is the connection between dark or light versions of the occult? I would expect you to feel remote from Alister Crowley.

I think it is possible to consider the mystic tradition you refer to without an occult connection.

[huckelberry]

Just curious, how did the DMT experience compare/contrast with the LSD experience?

I found the legitimate LSD (as opposed to the synthetic variants commonly sold illegally here in the U.S. at large events) to be a subtle experience, like slipping into a warm bath. There are visuals, but they emerge from the patterns of your environment and for me they ebbed and flowed with the music. The thing I remember most was the sensation of losing a first person perspective and it being replaced by a feeling of an interconnectedness with everything else sharing my space.....

It has been some time since both experiences and I haven’t used either substance since and probably never will again. Like everything else, there are diminishing returns when it comes to tripping and the more frequently you do it, it stops being enlightening and turns into you simply getting high because you can (which is never a good thing).

I am a bit curious as to what you are referring to as legitimate LSD. I have no idea what is being sold these days. (all LSD being synthetic) In say 68 or 69 purity was not assured. A friend encountered, few years earlier, some honest Sandoz Lsd. He reported it to have been very very visual perhaps a bit too strong for contemplating
interconnectedness. like you after chasing it for a while he decided best to let it be something in the past.

I was surprised you mention drawing as a contemplative activity. Long ago I realized I would not succeed as an artist, painter so gave up the pursuit. Drawing for its own contemplative quality has remained a part of my life.

[DrStakhanovite]

I am a bit curious as to what you are referring to as legitimate LSD. I have no idea what is being sold these days. (all LSD being synthetic) In say 68 or 69 purity was not assured.

I would consider lysergic acid diethylamide to be "legitimate LSD" as opposed to a variety of different party drugs that get sold under the name "acid".

[Don Bradley]

DT,

Sure. Within the limitations of a message board and time, I'm happy to answer your questions. First, I'd be curious to hear more about your own path and where it has led you so far.

Don

[Dr Exiled]

I am a bit curious as to what you are referring to as legitimate LSD. I have no idea what is being sold these days. (all LSD being synthetic) In say 68 or 69 purity was not assured.

I would consider lysergic acid diethylamide to be "legitimate LSD" as opposed to a variety of different party drugs that get sold under the name "acid".

When I was doing a lot of acid back in the day, we sometimes got screwed by the local dealers and so we always tried to stock up when the Dead came to town. The deadheads always had the best stuff.