How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

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Kishkumen
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Kishkumen »

Marcus wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 4:23 am
Im with you on this. After some epic tangles, i made a conscious decision a very long time ago to not let things get personal. But kishkumen continues to make personal attacks on me if i disagree with him (only if i am agreeable to the point of obsequiousness will he be polite, but that's not a long term solution.) This isn't the first time i've pointed out his baseless attacks and requested he address the topic without the personal insults.
If I take your idea of a fact to be Procrustean, it is not a knock on you, but your idea of a fact. If you persist in representing eras of the past by outdated concepts that border on myth, I will comment about that. I know you are fabulously intelligent, but it is possible, even for you, to be ignorant about some things. That is not an opinion. That is a fact. You are ignorant about some things.

Is that too personal for you?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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PseudoPaul
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by PseudoPaul »

Spiritual practices can be beneficial without there being some kind of supernatural or mystical reality beyond our own.
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Dr Moore
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Dr Moore »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 11:04 am
Dr.Moore is fundamentally engaged in the same project as Guénon; he is drawing upon a large pool of observation held in common, then translating it into an idiom that is commensurate with a body of science. Dr.Moore is using Number Theory, Guénon is using his own blend of terminology taken from occultic tradition; they may look completely different now, but 400 years ago they would have been peas in a pod.

Or 80 years ago if you party with Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley at the Agape Lodge.
Just a minute, have some reading to do…
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DrStakhanovite
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by DrStakhanovite »

Dr Moore wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 2:48 pm
Just a minute, have some reading to do…
Oh buddy, you are in for a treat. Even L. Ron Hubbard was there! How could he not be though? When the foremost rocket engineer is having sex-magic parties, Cult Leaders have a mandatory attendance.
Last edited by DrStakhanovite on Fri May 20, 2022 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dastardly stem
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by dastardly stem »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:02 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 2:48 pm
Just a minute, have some reading to do…
Oh buddy, you are in for a treat. Even L. Ron Hubbard was there! How could he not be though? When the foremost rocket engineer is have sex-magic parties, Cult Leaders have a mandatory attendance.
lol. Jack Parson's, Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard making his appearance....That's more than a treat. I'm so glad you made your appearance on this thread. No offense to Don but it was weird he invoked Huxley opening us all up to this. Its incredibly interesting stuff, but it blows my mind how its seen as a credible way to view things.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
msnobody
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by msnobody »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:26 pm
Given the prospect of knowing ultimate reality and what is of ultimate value, and of being transformed by that knowledge to live a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others and to the world, I can't help but think of these parables of Jesus:
Matthew 13: 44-46:
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and in his joy he went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. When he found one very precious pearl, he went away and sold all he had and bought it.
Don
I struggle to see how these parables describe a teaching that is of benefit to anyone else besides the one who thinks they have found the ultimate prize? If the man intends the treasure and pearl for himself, knowing many others will never benefit as he will, ultimately pursuing the kingdom is a terrible work, intent only to hurt others.
I think that the parable is saying that there is treasure that can be found (not just for one man); a treasure so valuable that it would cause a man to surrender all he once held as valuable, yet now pales in comparison to this treasure he has found in the field. The treasure once hidden, now revealed, and while this man is going about his daily activities of life.

In his book, The Tabernacle, M. R. DeHaan, describes in detail the Tabernacle and its contents. I like that the title of chapter 3 is Where God Meets Man. The outer covering of the Tabernacle is dark, dull, gray color badger skin (original porpoise), unappealing in appearance to the passerby.

The author writes, "A stranger viewing it from without would see none of the exquisite beauty and the breath-taking splendor of its glorious interior. Only after one had entered through the door at its eastern end, stopped to sacrifice at the altar of burnt offering, had washed his hands and feet at the laver, could one enter to behold the interior of this most magnificent 'House of God'."

I think the parable is demonstrating to us that, like what DeHaan describes in his book, is that God met this particular man in a field. This man entered the Tabernacle so to speak while out in the field.

If a few people would like to read The Tabernacle, I would be happy to purchase a copy for you. The book is very rich in symbolism, Old Testament/New Testament explanations, etc.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
dastardly stem
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by dastardly stem »

msnobody wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:30 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:26 pm


I struggle to see how these parables describe a teaching that is of benefit to anyone else besides the one who thinks they have found the ultimate prize? If the man intends the treasure and pearl for himself, knowing many others will never benefit as he will, ultimately pursuing the kingdom is a terrible work, intent only to hurt others.
I think that the parable is saying that there is treasure that can be found (not just for one man); a treasure so valuable that it would cause a man to surrender all he once held as valuable, yet now pales in comparison to this treasure he has found in the field. The treasure once hidden, now revealed, and while this man is going about his daily activities of life.

In his book, The Tabernacle, M. R. DeHaan, describes in detail the Tabernacle and its contents. I like that the title of chapter 3 is Where God Meets Man. The outer covering of the Tabernacle is dark, dull, gray color badger skin (original porpoise), unappealing in appearance to the passerby.

The author writes, "A stranger viewing it from without would see none of the exquisite beauty and the breath-taking splendor of its glorious interior. Only after one had entered through the door at its eastern end, stopped to sacrifice at the altar of burnt offering, had washed his hands and feet at the laver, could one enter to behold the interior of this most magnificent 'House of God'."

I think the parable is demonstrating to us that, like what DeHaan describes in his book, is that God met this particular man in a field. This man entered the Tabernacle so to speak while out in the field.

If a few people would like to read The Tabernacle, I would be happy to purchase a copy for you. The book is very rich in symbolism, Old Testament/New Testament explanations, etc.
I don't disagree with what you've said. My contention is, I don't see a good move to better humanity in this. Its simply a story about someone who finds something great, hides it in hopes to personally enjoy it at some point. While the meaning you get is absolutely there, I didn't follow Don's use of it.

Don mentioned the parable after he said, "being transformed by that knowledge to live a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others and to the world,"

I don't see how the parable addresses living a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others in the world. Its simply a parable for one to find something better for oneself then living a life in this world for other's benefits.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
msnobody
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by msnobody »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 12:48 pm
Don Bradley wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 6:49 am
Per the topic of this thread, what sort of practices do you do in pursuing that path, assuming it's more than an academic interest for you.
I got a taste of perennial philosophy from Mircea Eliade, who himself was sympathetic to it but not really onboard with it. I’ve grown pretty disillusioned towards the practice of comparative religion and what it can accomplish, so I’m opposed to perennial philosophy on a pretty foundational level.

That said, I view people who pursue it as fellow travelers and I’m more than happy to encourage the pursuit. I think the experience of being in a state of altered consciousness can be pretty important for character development as well as intellectual development, but I’ve come to the conclusion that what it gained isn’t what people imagine it to be.

I’ve experienced such states when I was in the military. I got a euphoric “runner’s high” during a twenty mile run on some fire breaks at Camp Mackall that had me thinking humans were put on earth by aliens for some inexplicable reason. To this day I have no idea why that thought popped into my head or why I even entertained it for so long, but for about an hour I thought that was an obvious and undeniable truth. Once in 2004 I had just arrived in Afghanistan and stupidly volunteered to carry a bunch of radio equipment up a mountain to a remote observation point. During the climb, I found out real quick I wasn’t properly acclimated to the elevation and physical exertion and lack of oxygen had me thinking the ghost of Alexander the Great was following me, like I actually saw him climbing with us. I totally get why Sherpas see Yetis now.

When I got to college on the G.I. Bill I became a psychonaut whilst doing my philosophy degree (I know I know…). I did DMT and encountered a being that others refer to as a “clockwork elf”, I even dropped LSD with one a former participant of these esteemed forums (the user known as gramps, but he has since passed), and I did ketamine before climbing into one of those deprivation chambers where you float in a saltwater solution. All of that was pretty cool, but if I’m being honest, what was gained wasn’t as valuable as people might suspect.

Nowadays I seek more permanent ways of expanding perception by making fundamental alterations to my consciousness that actually last. Learning languages and to draw have probably done more to change the way I see the world more than anything I’ve tried since.
Just curious, how did the DMT experience compare/contrast with the LSD experience?
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
huckelberry
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by huckelberry »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:39 pm
msnobody wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:30 pm


I think that the parable is saying that there is treasure that can be found (not just for one man); a treasure so valuable that it would cause a man to surrender all he once held as valuable, yet now pales in comparison to this treasure he has found in the field. The treasure once hidden, now revealed, and while this man is going about his daily activities of life.

In his book, The Tabernacle, M. R. DeHaan, describes in detail the Tabernacle and its contents. I like that the title of chapter 3 is Where God Meets Man. The outer covering of the Tabernacle is dark, dull, gray color badger skin (original porpoise), unappealing in appearance to the passerby.

The author writes, "A stranger viewing it from without would see none of the exquisite beauty and the breath-taking splendor of its glorious interior. Only after one had entered through the door at its eastern end, stopped to sacrifice at the altar of burnt offering, had washed his hands and feet at the laver, could one enter to behold the interior of this most magnificent 'House of God'."

I think the parable is demonstrating to us that, like what DeHaan describes in his book, is that God met this particular man in a field. This man entered the Tabernacle so to speak while out in the field.

If a few people would like to read The Tabernacle, I would be happy to purchase a copy for you. The book is very rich in symbolism, Old Testament/New Testament explanations, etc.
I don't disagree with what you've said. My contention is, I don't see a good move to better humanity in this. Its simply a story about someone who finds something great, hides it in hopes to personally enjoy it at some point. While the meaning you get is absolutely there, I didn't follow Don's use of it.

Don mentioned the parable after he said, "being transformed by that knowledge to live a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others and to the world,"

I don't see how the parable addresses living a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others in the world. Its simply a parable for one to find something better for oneself then living a life in this world for other's benefits.
dasterdly stem, Jesus parables are short,some very short. I think they would have been presented in groups to encourage people to think of several angles. I would not expect this parable to be a complete explanation but instead an invitation.
Marcus
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Marcus »

dastardly stem wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:17 pm
DrStakhanovite wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 3:02 pm


Oh buddy, you are in for a treat. Even L. Ron Hubbard was there! How could he not be though? When the foremost rocket engineer is have sex-magic parties, Cult Leaders have a mandatory attendance.
lol. Jack Parson's, Aleister Crowley, L. Ron Hubbard making his appearance....That's more than a treat. I'm so glad you made your appearance on this thread. No offense to Don but it was weird he invoked Huxley opening us all up to this. Its incredibly interesting stuff, but it blows my mind how its seen as a credible way to view things.
I’m also happy to see this thread moving in such an interesting direction; and my thanks also to those sharing! Like Dr. Moore, off to read a bit. It’s shaping up to be a busy, tense summer for various reasons, so having a totally different fascinating topic to dip into for a break is a godsend. (Or a yeti-send. Or an alien-send. Or a Geunon-send….. This thread is clearly all-encompassing. As Shades says, “all are welcome.” Which is also a famous line from Poltergeist, so.. there we are. 8-) )
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