If you are referring to kishkumen and me, to my best understanding we are BOTH professors at Universities. He is a historian, my area of expertise is in one of the hard sciences. He doesn’t seem to like me much. I’m sure it’s not my gender, but rather my dislikable personality.Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:41 amThe professor is attempting to help the student learn something valuable and all the student wants to do is skateboard to the Beach Boys old songs...
How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
I am sure there are good marriage counselors out-there.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:56 amIf you are referring to kishkumen and me, to my best understanding we are BOTH professors at Universities. He is a historian, my area of expertise is in one of the hard sciences. He doesn’t seem to like me much. I’m sure it’s not my gender, but rather my dislikable personality.
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Fri May 20, 2022 4:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
I hadn’t limited the analogy to people per se, but I suppose each person might be thought of as an infinite microcosm of subjective realities.doubtingthomas wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:55 amAnd there are more non-integer real numbers than natural numbers. So I guess there are more infinite subjective realities than infinite people?
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
OK, the suggestion of a Kish/Marcus "marriage" triggers something in me. So let me just jump in here (as one of the non-professor members of the board) with something that has been bothering me for a while.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:56 amIf you are referring to kishkumen and me, to my best understanding we are BOTH professors at Universities. He is a historian, my area of expertise is in one of the hard sciences. He doesn’t seem to like me much. I’m sure it’s not my gender, but rather my dislikable personality.Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:41 am
The professor is attempting to help the student learn something valuable and all the student wants to do is skateboard to the Beach Boys old songs...
Based on my observations here (and some elsewhere) I have great respect for both Marcus and Kishkumen. When you two argue, especially in not completely polite terms, I feel like a little kid whose parents are fighting, doesn't understand what the fight is about, and has the horrible feeling that at some point I'm going to have to choose a side.
I know - it's a bit pathetic in a way, but here I am.
I expect that a good part of this is due to the fact that a lot of the discussions here are way above my level of understanding.
Anyway, please carry on.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
In this thread I have to say, I would second Marcus’ first comment and brush off whatever it was about “dark ages” that agitated our esteemed reverend. If someone claims that this or that idea about the universe is a “fact” then, accordingly, there must be predictive power to repeatedly making the claimed observation. I don’t see any such thing, as nice as it sounds to claim that for 3 thousand+ years only the lowly of heart (whatever that means, strictly speaking) have been entitled to some form of higher consciousness. Bad science, might make for warm fuzzies but it’s still bad science.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:56 amIf you are referring to kishkumen and me, to my best understanding we are BOTH professors at Universities. He is a historian, my area of expertise is in one of the hard sciences. He doesn’t seem to like me much. I’m sure it’s not my gender, but rather my dislikable personality.Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:41 am
The professor is attempting to help the student learn something valuable and all the student wants to do is skateboard to the Beach Boys old songs...
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Im with you on this. After some epic tangles, i made a conscious decision a very long time ago to not let things get personal. But kishkumen continues to make personal attacks on me if i disagree with him (only if i am agreeable to the point of obsequiousness will he be polite, but that's not a long term solution.) This isn't the first time i've pointed out his baseless attacks and requested he address the topic without the personal insults.malkie wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 4:11 amOK, the suggestion of a Kish/Marcus "marriage" triggers something in me. So let me just jump in here (as one of the non-professor members of the board) with something that has been bothering me for a while.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 3:56 am
If you are referring to kishkumen and me, to my best understanding we are BOTH professors at Universities. He is a historian, my area of expertise is in one of the hard sciences. He doesn’t seem to like me much. I’m sure it’s not my gender, but rather my dislikable personality.
Based on my observations here (and some elsewhere) I have great respect for both Marcus and Kishkumen. When you two argue, especially in not completely polite terms, I feel like a little kid whose parents are fighting, doesn't understand what the fight is about, and has the horrible feeling that at some point I'm going to have to choose a side.
I know - it's a bit pathetic in a way, but here I am.
I expect that a good part of this is due to the fact that a lot of the discussions here are way above my level of understanding.
Anyway, please carry on.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
At its core, this may be true in a heuristic sense. More time meditating and loving others leads to selflessness, presence, anti-materialism and ultimately, fulfillment. Sounds great. Are we sure there isn’t selection bias in the sample? (Can we be sure that people who spend time in contemplative meditation don’t also become narcissists or serial murderers?)Don Bradley wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 6:17 amPractitioners of contemplative traditions across millennia and around the globe report that, diligently pursued, contemplative practices such as meditation or prayer and associated lives of love ultimately culminate in the knowledge of the transcendent.
More to the point at hand, what confuses me is the implicit leap being made from what we are trying to measure to a motivated conclusion. How do we go from a heuristic observation about lives lived with intention, to something that even remotely begins to capture the idea of a spiritual realm? What does any of the lived outcomes teach us, specifically, about a world beyond this one? Isn’t it just more confusing, if atheists and theists achieve the exact same results with the same practices? Arguably, the data only marginalizes God and a spiritual beyond, doesn’t it? And to that question, what to do with the notion that to the most conscious practitioners, religion and religious dogma becomes another “form” (Tolle) to discard?
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Well I would hope for a better outcome than contextless personal attacks.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 4:23 amIm with you on this. After some epic tangles, i made a conscious decision a very long time ago to not let things get personal. But kishkumen continues to make personal attacks on me if i disagree with him (only if i am agreeable to the point of obsequiousness will he be polite, but that's not a long term solution.) This isn't the first time i've pointed out his baseless attacks and requested he address the topic without the personal insults.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
By the way, to be clear, I do believe in something beyond the observable physical world. My experience with it is my own subjective reality. I have no idea what it is - I simply don’t know. But that belief remains, however irrational it might be.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Why do you have to believe it? Are you highly confident that there is something beyond the observable physical world?
Do you believe that some people see aliens during a DMT trip?
More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer identified as atheist afterwards. The experiences were rated as among the most meaningful, spiritual, and psychologically insightful lifetime experiences, with persisting positive changes in life satisfaction, purpose, and meaning attributed to the experiences."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345112/
"Why people encounter what appear to be non-human entities while on DMT but not on other drugs is currently unknown." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ity-part-1
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus.