How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

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Don Bradley
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How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Don Bradley »

The question has come up in another thread of how we might know of the existence of a spiritual reality. So, building on some thoughts from Kish and using a great deal from Aldous Huxley, I'll offer some thoughts on how I see this. To clarify at the outset, I'm absolutely not of the view that mere good feelings or physical tingles are themselves barometers of truth, spiritual or otherwise. I am, as I think will become clear, talking about something much deeper and more substantial.

Practitioners of contemplative traditions across millennia and around the globe report that, diligently pursued, contemplative practices such as meditation or prayer and associated lives of love ultimately culminate in the knowledge of the transcendent. And, as Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy and others have shown, they tend to arrive at a surprisingly consistent view of that transcendent, and of this world's relationship to it, despite wide variances in their cultural contexts. (See The Perennial Philosophy: https://archive.org/stream/the-perennia ... y_djvu.txt or
https://www.amazon.com/Perennial-Philo ... 0061724947)

To quote Huxley:
'Practice,' in the words of William James, may change our theoretical horizon, and this in a twofold way : it may lead into new worlds and secure new powers. Knowledge we could never attain, remaining what we are, may be attainable in consequence of higher powers and a higher life, which we may morally achieve. To put the matter more succinctly, Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.' And the same idea has been expressed by the Sufi poet, Jalal-uddin Rumi, in terms of a scientific metaphor : The astrolabe of the mysteries of God is love.

... The Perennial Philosophy is primarily concerned with the one, divine Reality substantial to the manifold world of things and lives and minds. But the nature of this one Reality is such that it cannot be directly and immediately apprehended except by those who have chosen to fulfil certain conditions, making themselves loving, pure in heart, and poor in spirit. ... It is only by making physical experiments that we can discover the intimate nature of matter and its potentialities. And it is only by making psychological and moral experiments that we can discover the intimate nature of mind and its potentialities. In the ordinary circumstances of average sensual life these potentialities of the mind remain latent and unmanifested. If we would realize them, we must fulfil certain conditions and obey certain rules, which experience has shown empirically to be valid. ... It is a fact, confirmed and reconfirmed during two or three thousand years of religious history, that Ultimate Reality is not clearly and immediately apprehended except by those who have made themselves loving, pure in heart and poor in spirit. ...

... No amount of such theorizing, however ingenious, could ever tell us as much about the galactic and extra-galactic nebulae as can direct acquaintance by means of a good telescope, camera and spectroscope. Analogously, no amount of theorizing about such hints as may be darkly glimpsed within the ordinary, unregenerate experience of the manifold world can tell us as much about divine Reality as can be directly apprehended by a mind in a state of detachment, charity and humility. Natural science is empirical; but it does not confine itself to the experience of human beings in their merely human and unmodified condition. Why empirical theologians should feel themselves obliged to submit to this handicap, goodness only knows. And of course, so long as they confine empirical experience within these all too human limits, they are doomed to the perpetual stultification of their best efforts. From the material they have chosen to consider, no mind, however brilliantly gifted, can infer more than a set of possibilities or, at the very best, specious probabilities. The self-validating certainty of direct awareness cannot in the very nature of things be achieved except by those equipped with the moral 'astrolabe of God's mysteries/ If one is not oneself a sage or saint, the best thing one can do, in the field of metaphysics, is to study the works of those who were, and who, because they had modified their merely human mode of being, were capable of a more than merely human kind and amount of knowledge.
- Aldous Huxley, The Perennial Philosophy
What more consequential and ultimately promising experiment could we possibly perform?

Given the prospect of knowing ultimate reality and what is of ultimate value, and of being transformed by that knowledge to live a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others and to the world, I can't help but think of these parables of Jesus:
Matthew 13: 44-46:
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and in his joy he went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. When he found one very precious pearl, he went away and sold all he had and bought it.
Don
"People can find meaninglessness in just about anything if they convince themselves that there is no meaning in that thing." - The Rev. Dr. Lumen Kishkumen
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Moksha
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Moksha »

Aldous Huxley reminds me of Gemli (the truth sayer of the Sic et Non board) when he said, “In matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it will take you, without regard to any other considerations…do not pretend that conclusions are certain which are not demonstrated or demonstrable.”

I could buy into a spiritual reality based on loving and helping one another. That seems to be a good end. As far as peering into the void and comprehending the unknowable, well, that reminds me of people wanting to make a paycheck or company payroll off of granting some heavenly benefits.
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doubtingthomas
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:17 am
To clarify at the outset, I'm absolutely not of the view that mere good feelings or physical tingles are themselves barometers of truth, spiritual or otherwise. I am, as I think will become clear, talking about something much deeper and more substantial.
But what makes you so confident that spiritual experiences are real? Is there room for reasonable doubt?
Don Bradley wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 6:17 am
And, as Aldous Huxley in The Perennial Philosophy and others have shown, they tend to arrive at a surprisingly consistent view of that transcendent, and of this world's relationship to it, despite wide variances in their cultural contexts.
A neurologist has an explanation that makes evolutionary sense.
https://www.amazon.com/Phantom-God-Neur ... 1633888061

DMT seems to be more powerful than prayer and the Book of Mormon.
"More than half of those who identified as atheist before the experience no longer identified as atheist afterwards. The experiences were rated as among the most meaningful, spiritual, and psychologically insightful lifetime experiences, with persisting positive changes in life satisfaction, purpose, and meaning attributed to the experiences."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345112/

According to a researcher, "Why people encounter what appear to be non-human entities while on DMT but not on other drugs is currently unknown." https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ity-part-1

I honestly would like to know your opinion on DMT experiences. Would you agree DMT aliens are possible?
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by drumdude »

"When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God has a work for me to do... He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."

An experience like this would be likely to convince many people. Apparently only treasure digging con men receive them, however.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Marcus »

… It is a fact, confirmed and reconfirmed during two or three thousand years of religious history, that Ultimate Reality is not clearly and immediately apprehended except by those who have made themselves loving, pure in heart and poor in spirit.
I have more to say about the idea that religious endeavor is analogous to the results that come from building and using a telescope, but for a quick start, let’s consider this “fact,” as stated above. It’s a lovely sentiment, but it absolutely is not a confirmed fact. It has no empirical observability, no replicable or experimental structure, nothing that even remotely corresponds to the accepted use of the concept of a fact. The assertion that it has been confirmed and reconfirmed is ludicrous.

Do we even need to debate this? Come on, Don. I have no problem with you making an argument about spiritual feelings, but the above sentence in no way constitutes a statement of fact. It simply doesn’t. I feel like we’ve retreated into some murky level of the dark ages here.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Rivendale »

"hey tend to arrive at a surprisingly consistent view of that transcendent, and of this world's relationship to it, "

In other words spirituality and the transcendent are for those that have been there. It can't be independently verified except for those that have experienced it. All this describes is brain states. Making connections to the world through brain states are bound to show consistent patterns because we are similar primates. There is nothing in these transcendent claims that point to any verifiable objective truth(s). They merely describe experiences that are filtered through each individuals neurological system where interpretation processes proceed. And again, they can not be independently verified and have never (to my knowledge) led to any revelatory universal fact about the universe. Just as the Peacocks tail points to evolutionary extremes the imagination, creativity and inspirational extremes of the human species seems to have led to fertile grounds for creating unfalsifiable realms.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 11:17 am
"When I first looked upon him I was afraid, but the fear soon left me. He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Nephi. That God has a work for me to do... He said there was a book deposited written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang."

An experience like this would be likely to convince many people. Apparently only treasure digging con men receive them, however.
Not according to D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View.
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by dastardly stem »

Sounds like Huxley is assuming a divine then based on that assumption has concluded it is there. As Marcus points out, he's concluded things based on assumption, hoping, it seems, to make it all sound beautiful.

He's also not clear that the divine is anything other than what we can imagine, and if so, it's really just imagination he's arguing for.
Last edited by dastardly stem on Thu May 19, 2022 2:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by dastardly stem »

Given the prospect of knowing ultimate reality and what is of ultimate value, and of being transformed by that knowledge to live a life of greatest meaning and contribution to others and to the world, I can't help but think of these parables of Jesus:
Matthew 13: 44-46:
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and in his joy he went and sold all he had and bought that field. Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls. When he found one very precious pearl, he went away and sold all he had and bought it.
Don
I struggle to see how these parables describe a teaching that is of benefit to anyone else besides the one who thinks they have found the ultimate prize? If the man intends the treasure and pearl for himself, knowing many others will never benefit as he will, ultimately pursuing the kingdom is a terrible work, intent only to hurt others.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?

Post by Dr Exiled »

Yeah, sounds like one needs to presume too much in order to get there. It reminds me of how we used to coax, as missionaries, the target investigator into believing the Book of Mormon. When you sincerely read it, you need to have a desire to believe, we would say, and the desire to believe needs to be to such an extent where it is almost to the point of belief itself. Only then can the spiritual witness self-delusion come. Then, whatever good feeling was had by the target would be transformed into a miraculous spiritual witness by us on our next visit. The trick was in the salesmanship at this point as sometimes it was difficult to convince the target that the feelings from the good meal they just ate were really god telling them to join us.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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