Page 3 of 10
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 1:08 am
by doubtingthomas
huckelberry wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 12:48 am
What is the difference between miraculous and more miraculous?
More effective?
huckelberry wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 12:48 am
I think born again refers to something larger in time and relationships than an experience.
Same with DMT.
"
More than half of those who identified
as atheist before the experience
no longer identified as atheist afterwards. The experiences were rated as among the most meaningful, spiritual, and psychologically insightful lifetime experiences, with persisting positive changes in life satisfaction, purpose, and meaning attributed to the experiences."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32345112/
According to a researcher, "Why people encounter what appear to be non-human entities while on DMT
but not on other drugs is currently unknown."
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... ity-part-1
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 1:11 am
by Philo Sofee
huckelberry wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 12:48 am
doubtingthomas wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 11:39 pm
Do you acknowledged that DMT appears to be more miraculous than born-again experiences?
I think born again refers to something larger in time and relationships than an experience.
What is the difference between miraculous and more miraculous?
I once read a most startling question I still have not been able to answer in any depth for me yet.... "what is the difference between being alive and the miraculous?"
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 1:34 am
by Dr Moore
I appreciate Don's post. And DrStak, I used Google search at least 7 times to fully understand that comment. This stuff is all way above my pay grade.
I'll offer an analogy -- the real number line.
Where:
* Integers, or whole numbers, represent things that are objectively verifiable or observable. This is the realm of hard science -- things, facts, ideas which can be replicated through predictive experimentation.
* All of the non-integer real numbers in between (the non-integer rationals and irrationals) represent things or ideas which cannot be replicated through predictive experimentation. Mysticism. Spirituality. Love.
This is too simplistic, but hopefully the basic ideas come across.
1) Both sets are infinite
2) The integers are predictable and can eventually all be "known"
3) In between any 2 integers, there are infinite real numbers. Or in this analogy, there are infinite subjective realities in between that which can be objectively verified.
4) Moreover, between any two real numbers, no matter how close together they are (say, 1.71459282238947 and 1.71459282238948) there are also an infinite number of real numbers. This is true no matter how small the distance between numbers, or in other words, there could be infinite subjective realities between that experienced by any two people, however similar their experiences. Likely, every person's subjective experience will vary in some small way from another's.
So this is kind of how I visualize the question of "reality" of spiritual things. Sure, the experiences are real. The enlightenment, or state of being, also totally real. No question. But without some means of objectively, predictably checking in on a specific asserted spiritual reality, the idea itself is like a non-integer real number -- infinite in variation, and inversely the odds of any specific claim being "true" vs "subjective imagination" are statistically zero. Just like the odds of any specific real number being picked out of a random gap in between any two real numbers is also statistically zero, given infinite possibilities.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:22 am
by Philo Sofee
Dr Moore wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 1:34 am
I appreciate Don's post. And DrStak, I used Google search at least 7 times to fully understand that comment. This stuff is all way above my pay grade.
I'll offer an analogy -- the real number line.
Where:
* Integers, or whole numbers, represent things that are objectively verifiable or observable. This is the realm of hard science -- things, facts, ideas which can be replicated through predictive experimentation.
* All of the non-integer real numbers in between (the non-integer rationals and irrationals) represent things or ideas which cannot be replicated through predictive experimentation. Mysticism. Spirituality. Love.
This is too simplistic, but hopefully the basic ideas come across.
1) Both sets are infinite
2) The integers are predictable and can eventually all be "known"
3) In between any 2 integers, there are infinite real numbers. Or in this analogy, there are infinite subjective realities in between that which can be objectively verified.
4) Moreover, between any two real numbers, no matter how close together they are (say, 1.71459282238947 and 1.71459282238948) there are also an infinite number of real numbers. This is true no matter how small the distance between numbers, or in other words, there could be infinite subjective realities between that experienced by any two people, however similar their experiences. Likely, every person's subjective experience will vary in some small way from another's.
So this is kind of how I visualize the question of "reality" of spiritual things. Sure, the experiences are real. The enlightenment, or state of being, also totally real. No question. But without some means of objectively, predictably checking in on a specific asserted spiritual reality, the idea itself is like a non-integer real number -- infinite in variation, and inversely the odds of any specific claim being "true" vs "subjective imagination" are statistically zero. Just like the odds of any specific real number being picked out of a random gap in between any two real numbers is also statistically zero, given infinite possibilities.
That is one of the coolest analogies I have ever read...EVER. Thank you much for sharing this.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:24 am
by Gadianton
James wrote:But the nature of this one Reality is such that it cannot be directly and immediately apprehended except by those who have chosen to fulfil certain conditions...It is a fact, confirmed and reconfirmed during two or three thousand years of religious history
It's nice rhetoric if preaching to the choir, but not very convincing to anybody else.
I'd expect different things from "spiritual reality" depending on what is or isn't behind that spiritual reality. If we're talking about some mystic property of the universe, or effects of a deeply hidden God not fundamentally concerned about our day-to-day, then it could be something like this, but it could also be spiritualist and amoral or neither. It may be that only good people figure it out or only clever people figure it out, or only people that smoke certain substances.
If we're talking a God of revelation, a God that is personal and has an understanding with people, then something like this makes sense, but it's pretty vague, because the "certain conditions" could very widely depending on what God revealed, and depending on what God's aims are. It could be breaking into a person's house and killing them while they're drunk to take their gold, if God needs that gold for something. It could be that God's aims are different from what he's revealed because of the nature of the test.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:33 am
by Kishkumen
Marcus wrote: ↑Thu May 19, 2022 10:33 pm
calling something a fact when it is not? Preach it brother!
Your Procrustean version of what a fact is? Now that is hilarious.
No, I was talking about murky and dark ages, which show an astounding level of ignorance on your part.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:34 am
by Dr Moore
Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:22 am
That is one of the coolest analogies I have ever read...EVER. Thank you much for sharing this.
Thanks bud. I probably shouldn’t comment on threads like this. I’m not sufficiently well read.
I have, however, learned from quite a few people (not me) about first hand transformational realities induced by magic mushrooms.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:40 am
by Rivendale
Dr Moore wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 1:34 am
I appreciate Don's post. And DrStak, I used Google search at least 7 times to fully understand that comment. This stuff is all way above my pay grade.
I'll offer an analogy -- the real number line.
Where:
* Integers, or whole numbers, represent things that are objectively verifiable or observable. This is the realm of hard science -- things, facts, ideas which can be replicated through predictive experimentation.
* All of the non-integer real numbers in between (the non-integer rationals and irrationals) represent things or ideas which cannot be replicated through predictive experimentation. Mysticism. Spirituality. Love.
This is too simplistic, but hopefully the basic ideas come across.
1) Both sets are infinite
2) The integers are predictable and can eventually all be "known"
3) In between any 2 integers, there are infinite real numbers. Or in this analogy, there are infinite subjective realities in between that which can be objectively verified.
4) Moreover, between any two real numbers, no matter how close together they are (say, 1.71459282238947 and 1.71459282238948) there are also an infinite number of real numbers. This is true no matter how small the distance between numbers, or in other words, there could be infinite subjective realities between that experienced by any two people, however similar their experiences. Likely, every person's subjective experience will vary in some small way from another's.
So this is kind of how I visualize the question of "reality" of spiritual things. Sure, the experiences are real. The enlightenment, or state of being, also totally real. No question. But without some means of objectively, predictably checking in on a specific asserted spiritual reality, the idea itself is like a non-integer real number -- infinite in variation, and inversely the odds of any specific claim being "true" vs "subjective imagination" are statistically zero. Just like the odds of any specific real number being picked out of a random gap in between any two real numbers is also statistically zero, given infinite possibilities.
Excellent example. However it reminds me of the Grim Reaper paradox.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertask. This seems to reflect that. If you subdivide things fine enough you can create sawdust that create meaning for anyone.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:57 am
by Res Ipsa
Dr Moore wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:34 am
Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:22 am
That is one of the coolest analogies I have ever read...EVER. Thank you much for sharing this.
Thanks bud. I probably shouldn’t comment on threads like this. I’m not sufficiently well read.
I have, however, learned from quite a few people (not me) about first hand transformational realities induced by magic mushrooms.
And here I was thinking you should post more on threads like this.
It was a pretty cool analogy.
Re: How Would We Know of a Spiritual Reality?
Posted: Fri May 20, 2022 2:58 am
by Philo Sofee
Dr Moore wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:34 am
Philo Sofee wrote: ↑Fri May 20, 2022 2:22 am
That is one of the coolest analogies I have ever read...EVER. Thank you much for sharing this.
Thanks bud. I probably shouldn’t comment on threads like this. I’m not sufficiently well read.
I have, however, learned from quite a few people (not me) about first hand transformational realities induced by magic mushrooms.
That's to be in my own future... some day. I have every determination to have that experience. After all, that's the point of myths, to give us experience. In that they are the ground truth and reality, even though we don't ever find the gods bones...
