An imagined world--it's own thread

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Marcus
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Marcus »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:19 pm

…I am open to sayin that these are the result of intuitions based on stimuli that are not fully consciously processed. On the other hand, someone might say that there really is a spiritual motivation prompting these things. I am happy to remain open to both possibilities. I don't need it to be one or the other…
Thanks for posting this. I really wasn’t getting that point of view from you based on your previous posts, so this clarification is very helpful.
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by huckelberry »

msnobody wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 7:46 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:07 pm


I don't think you're crazy. I've seen things too. I don't attribute visions as evidence of a spiritual world. They are brain activity. If we can validate the existence of a spirit world, then it becomes a more viable explanation for any such experiences.
I'm not so sure you can validate the existence of a spirit world to someone else's satisfaction. Perhaps what is seen spiritually prompts brain activity, rather than brain activity prompting what one sees spiritually?
I think Msnobody make a good point. Her experience should not be lightly dismissed.

Many years ago I spent some time working as an aid in a nursing home. There was a woman of faith who spread a caring spirit. I was in her room late in the night when she died. I heard the angels come to get her.
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Philo Sofee »

Perhaps spirituality and the spirit world is our imagination... spirituality is an attitude, not something physical. Attitudes aren't physical things... they have no shape, no color, no actual properties we can touch, experience in the physical world like we can the smells of pine trees and color of rocks and flowers. I like to think I am pragmatic as well as spiritual. Let me give you an for instance...

When I got to the house I live in right now almost 35 years ago there was nothing but a house and grass with a row of lilacs across the back. It was all just flat lawn, and not at all taken care of either. Nothing wrong with that.

But in my imagination I wanted to live in a forest, with animals, beautiful birds, plants of all kinds, flowers, so, I began to plant. I planted everything man! Trees, shrubs, flowers, I gathered rocks of all kinds and colors from the mountains, the deserts, etc. And I watered and planted year after year. I imagined living in my own Garden of Eden. I mean like the paintings! Now, the Garden of Eden is a myth it isn't real. But that has nothing to do with its actual power. Eden may be purely unreal myth, but its influence is absolutely substantial. Like the myth Star Wars. That has changed the entire world, financially, physically, imaginatively, artistically, even with furniture, lights, weapons, clothes, public gatherings celebrating it, hair styles, expressions, meanings, our very language, etc. Our physical reality has literally been changed by the myth and imagination of a fiction movie that has no possible change of being "real", yet its power is undeniable.

The same thing with my own Garden of Eden in my own midst I enjoy every day. When visitors come over and have a dinner with us they bask in the astonishing peaceful beauty, the birds are chirping, squirrels running around, bees buzzing around traveling from flower to flower, the praying mantis, beetles, butterflies, yes even rabbits amaze them. The shapes and smells of the trees, their colors, their height, everything is just gorgeous! The hawks, eagles (yes, eagles at times!), sparrows, magpies, wrens, chickadees, robins, doves, pigeons, wood peckers, all visit us. The weird shapes of the rocks among the ferns peeking through the undergrowth on the ground gives their eyes beauty to enjoy, the wind through the trees, the scattered sunlight and shadows, all interplaying. I have heard many expression such as "this is heaven!" "Oh I would die for this place!" "I don't want to leave" and on and on it goes.

Eden is very actually real, I LIVE IN IT. I HAVE MY OWN PIECE OF IT. I ***KNOW*** it's REAL, I CREATED IT, first in my IMAGINATION, then in my GOALS, then ACTION, and now FULFILLMENT. That to me is what being spiritual is. Is this THE actual Eden? No. Is this actually Eden? Oh heavens yes, like I say, I own it, I get to enjoy it, thrive in it, live, laugh, eat, relax, and work, and sleep in it every single day. You can't possibly tell me Eden isn't real, I will simply laugh at you. I am being literal here. Eden is VERY real. Is it the objective Eden though? Why on earth would that even possibly matter to me at all in any way? Of course it is subjective to me. It's also physically very real to me, I get to climb its trees, weed its weeds, water its plants, feed its animals, listen to the insects, birds, and wind, paint the trees, and enjoy the clouds floating over it as I live in it. My real Eden has been called "Heaven" by many people who have been here. Is heaven real? Sure it is! I made a piece of that in my life also. It was deliberate, it is PHYSICAL, yet it is entirely 100% subjective to my own experience. That doesn't make it fake, or an illusion however. It is spiritual all the while being physical. The physical is the spiritual in this sense, at least to me.

And I gotta admit, this topic and thread is a whole lot more interesting than talking about Daniel C. Peterson! :lol:
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:12 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:03 pm
I absolutely agree. It's something I've thought a little bit about, but given the negative implications of labeling religious thought as "irrational," I haven't tried to actually flesh out a workable distinction.

In my work world, "rational" would be something like "an argument that flows from evidence-based facts to a conclusion following inferences that are formally valid." Or something. But rather than label an argument irrational (unless it's in the realm of crazy), I'd just attack either evidence or the inferences and show why it is irrational without using the label. But that's way too narrow for general usage.

Do you use the concept of rationality when evaluating historical evidence and proposing interpretations or conclusions. Or reading someone else's evaluation? If so, how do you define (loosely and generally) a rational argument or theory?
My definition of rationality depends on whether I am dealing in abstract ideas or realia. Ultimately I am an idealist who recognizes the necessity of dealing with real life pragmatically for the most part.
Perhaps there is another angle here as well. There is the rational. There is the irrational. But no one ever even supposes there is also a suprarational. Could it be a three category situation we are in without realizing it? I shall have to check into it. It may be kind of like logical and illogical. But there is also an analogical way...
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Rivendale »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:03 am
Perhaps spirituality and the spirit world is our imagination... spirituality is an attitude, not something physical. Attitudes aren't physical things... they have no shape, no color, no actual properties we can touch, experience in the physical world like we can the smells of pine trees and color of rocks and flowers. I like to think I am pragmatic as well as spiritual. Let me give you an for instance...

When I got to the house I live in right now almost 35 years ago there was nothing but a house and grass with a row of lilacs across the back. It was all just flat lawn, and not at all taken care of either. Nothing wrong with that.

But in my imagination I wanted to live in a forest, with animals, beautiful birds, plants of all kinds, flowers, so, I began to plant. I planted everything man! Trees, shrubs, flowers, I gathered rocks of all kinds and colors from the mountains, the deserts, etc. And I watered and planted year after year. I imagined living in my own Garden of Eden. I mean like the paintings! Now, the Garden of Eden is a myth it isn't real. But that has nothing to do with its actual power. Eden may be purely unreal myth, but its influence is absolutely substantial. Like the myth Star Wars. That has changed the entire world, financially, physically, imaginatively, artistically, even with furniture, lights, weapons, clothes, public gatherings celebrating it, hair styles, expressions, meanings, our very language, etc. Our physical reality has literally been changed by the myth and imagination of a fiction movie that has no possible change of being "real", yet its power is undeniable.

The same thing with my own Garden of Eden in my own midst I enjoy every day. When visitors come over and have a dinner with us they bask in the astonishing peaceful beauty, the birds are chirping, squirrels running around, bees buzzing around traveling from flower to flower, the praying mantis, beetles, butterflies, yes even rabbits amaze them. The shapes and smells of the trees, their colors, their height, everything is just gorgeous! The hawks, eagles (yes, eagles at times!), sparrows, magpies, wrens, chickadees, robins, doves, pigeons, wood peckers, all visit us. The weird shapes of the rocks among the ferns peeking through the undergrowth on the ground gives their eyes beauty to enjoy, the wind through the trees, the scattered sunlight and shadows, all interplaying. I have heard many expression such as "this is heaven!" "Oh I would die for this place!" "I don't want to leave" and on and on it goes.

Eden is very actually real, I LIVE IN IT. I HAVE MY OWN PIECE OF IT. I ***KNOW*** it's REAL, I CREATED IT, first in my IMAGINATION, then in my GOALS, then ACTION, and now FULFILLMENT. That to me is what being spiritual is. Is this THE actual Eden? No. Is this actually Eden? Oh heavens yes, like I say, I own it, I get to enjoy it, thrive in it, live, laugh, eat, relax, and work, and sleep in it every single day. You can't possibly tell me Eden isn't real, I will simply laugh at you. I am being literal here. Eden is VERY real. Is it the objective Eden though? Why on earth would that even possibly matter to me at all in any way? Of course it is subjective to me. It's also physically very real to me, I get to climb its trees, weed its weeds, water its plants, feed its animals, listen to the insects, birds, and wind, paint the trees, and enjoy the clouds floating over it as I live in it. My real Eden has been called "Heaven" by many people who have been here. Is heaven real? Sure it is! I made a piece of that in my life also. It was deliberate, it is PHYSICAL, yet it is entirely 100% subjective to my own experience. That doesn't make it fake, or an illusion however. It is spiritual all the while being physical. The physical is the spiritual in this sense, at least to me.

And I gotta admit, this topic and thread is a whole lot more interesting than talking about Daniel C. Peterson! :lol:
If that is spiritual I am guilty. I bought a piece of sage brush in 1999 and completely changed the landscape as I built the house I now live in . I enjoy https://imgur.com/IaYjhyb my yard and work on it all the time with no spiritual intent at all. I simply laugh at the idea it has to have some link to another realm. It was just me and what I wanted. And yes objective truth is real. I don't think any being sent me instructions to do this. I don't think any theology organized my intentions to do this. I did it because I learned how to understand and appreciate the world around me. I did it because it resonated with me. There were no truths I learned other than my wife and myself creating an atmosphere we both appreciated. But those truths came from real objective facts about the world I live in. That is the entire point.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Res Ipsa »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:28 am
Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 8:12 pm


My definition of rationality depends on whether I am dealing in abstract ideas or realia. Ultimately I am an idealist who recognizes the necessity of dealing with real life pragmatically for the most part.
Perhaps there is another angle here as well. There is the rational. There is the irrational. But no one ever even supposes there is also a suprarational. Could it be a three category situation we are in without realizing it? I shall have to check into it. It may be kind of like logical and illogical. But there is also an analogical way...
I think that's a really interesting point. Your term avoids the implied stigma of irrational. I like how you think through these issues.
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Res Ipsa »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:03 am
Perhaps spirituality and the spirit world is our imagination... spirituality is an attitude, not something physical. Attitudes aren't physical things... they have no shape, no color, no actual properties we can touch, experience in the physical world like we can the smells of pine trees and color of rocks and flowers. I like to think I am pragmatic as well as spiritual. Let me give you an for instance...

When I got to the house I live in right now almost 35 years ago there was nothing but a house and grass with a row of lilacs across the back. It was all just flat lawn, and not at all taken care of either. Nothing wrong with that.

But in my imagination I wanted to live in a forest, with animals, beautiful birds, plants of all kinds, flowers, so, I began to plant. I planted everything man! Trees, shrubs, flowers, I gathered rocks of all kinds and colors from the mountains, the deserts, etc. And I watered and planted year after year. I imagined living in my own Garden of Eden. I mean like the paintings! Now, the Garden of Eden is a myth it isn't real. But that has nothing to do with its actual power. Eden may be purely unreal myth, but its influence is absolutely substantial. Like the myth Star Wars. That has changed the entire world, financially, physically, imaginatively, artistically, even with furniture, lights, weapons, clothes, public gatherings celebrating it, hair styles, expressions, meanings, our very language, etc. Our physical reality has literally been changed by the myth and imagination of a fiction movie that has no possible change of being "real", yet its power is undeniable.

The same thing with my own Garden of Eden in my own midst I enjoy every day. When visitors come over and have a dinner with us they bask in the astonishing peaceful beauty, the birds are chirping, squirrels running around, bees buzzing around traveling from flower to flower, the praying mantis, beetles, butterflies, yes even rabbits amaze them. The shapes and smells of the trees, their colors, their height, everything is just gorgeous! The hawks, eagles (yes, eagles at times!), sparrows, magpies, wrens, chickadees, robins, doves, pigeons, wood peckers, all visit us. The weird shapes of the rocks among the ferns peeking through the undergrowth on the ground gives their eyes beauty to enjoy, the wind through the trees, the scattered sunlight and shadows, all interplaying. I have heard many expression such as "this is heaven!" "Oh I would die for this place!" "I don't want to leave" and on and on it goes.

Eden is very actually real, I LIVE IN IT. I HAVE MY OWN PIECE OF IT. I ***KNOW*** it's REAL, I CREATED IT, first in my IMAGINATION, then in my GOALS, then ACTION, and now FULFILLMENT. That to me is what being spiritual is. Is this THE actual Eden? No. Is this actually Eden? Oh heavens yes, like I say, I own it, I get to enjoy it, thrive in it, live, laugh, eat, relax, and work, and sleep in it every single day. You can't possibly tell me Eden isn't real, I will simply laugh at you. I am being literal here. Eden is VERY real. Is it the objective Eden though? Why on earth would that even possibly matter to me at all in any way? Of course it is subjective to me. It's also physically very real to me, I get to climb its trees, weed its weeds, water its plants, feed its animals, listen to the insects, birds, and wind, paint the trees, and enjoy the clouds floating over it as I live in it. My real Eden has been called "Heaven" by many people who have been here. Is heaven real? Sure it is! I made a piece of that in my life also. It was deliberate, it is PHYSICAL, yet it is entirely 100% subjective to my own experience. That doesn't make it fake, or an illusion however. It is spiritual all the while being physical. The physical is the spiritual in this sense, at least to me.

And I gotta admit, this topic and thread is a whole lot more interesting than talking about Daniel C. Peterson! :lol:
You and me both, man. You and me both.
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When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Philo Sofee »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:55 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:03 am
Perhaps spirituality and the spirit world is our imagination... spirituality is an attitude, not something physical. Attitudes aren't physical things... they have no shape, no color, no actual properties we can touch, experience in the physical world like we can the smells of pine trees and color of rocks and flowers. I like to think I am pragmatic as well as spiritual. Let me give you an for instance...

When I got to the house I live in right now almost 35 years ago there was nothing but a house and grass with a row of lilacs across the back. It was all just flat lawn, and not at all taken care of either. Nothing wrong with that.

But in my imagination I wanted to live in a forest, with animals, beautiful birds, plants of all kinds, flowers, so, I began to plant. I planted everything man! Trees, shrubs, flowers, I gathered rocks of all kinds and colors from the mountains, the deserts, etc. And I watered and planted year after year. I imagined living in my own Garden of Eden. I mean like the paintings! Now, the Garden of Eden is a myth it isn't real. But that has nothing to do with its actual power. Eden may be purely unreal myth, but its influence is absolutely substantial. Like the myth Star Wars. That has changed the entire world, financially, physically, imaginatively, artistically, even with furniture, lights, weapons, clothes, public gatherings celebrating it, hair styles, expressions, meanings, our very language, etc. Our physical reality has literally been changed by the myth and imagination of a fiction movie that has no possible change of being "real", yet its power is undeniable.

The same thing with my own Garden of Eden in my own midst I enjoy every day. When visitors come over and have a dinner with us they bask in the astonishing peaceful beauty, the birds are chirping, squirrels running around, bees buzzing around traveling from flower to flower, the praying mantis, beetles, butterflies, yes even rabbits amaze them. The shapes and smells of the trees, their colors, their height, everything is just gorgeous! The hawks, eagles (yes, eagles at times!), sparrows, magpies, wrens, chickadees, robins, doves, pigeons, wood peckers, all visit us. The weird shapes of the rocks among the ferns peeking through the undergrowth on the ground gives their eyes beauty to enjoy, the wind through the trees, the scattered sunlight and shadows, all interplaying. I have heard many expression such as "this is heaven!" "Oh I would die for this place!" "I don't want to leave" and on and on it goes.

Eden is very actually real, I LIVE IN IT. I HAVE MY OWN PIECE OF IT. I ***KNOW*** it's REAL, I CREATED IT, first in my IMAGINATION, then in my GOALS, then ACTION, and now FULFILLMENT. That to me is what being spiritual is. Is this THE actual Eden? No. Is this actually Eden? Oh heavens yes, like I say, I own it, I get to enjoy it, thrive in it, live, laugh, eat, relax, and work, and sleep in it every single day. You can't possibly tell me Eden isn't real, I will simply laugh at you. I am being literal here. Eden is VERY real. Is it the objective Eden though? Why on earth would that even possibly matter to me at all in any way? Of course it is subjective to me. It's also physically very real to me, I get to climb its trees, weed its weeds, water its plants, feed its animals, listen to the insects, birds, and wind, paint the trees, and enjoy the clouds floating over it as I live in it. My real Eden has been called "Heaven" by many people who have been here. Is heaven real? Sure it is! I made a piece of that in my life also. It was deliberate, it is PHYSICAL, yet it is entirely 100% subjective to my own experience. That doesn't make it fake, or an illusion however. It is spiritual all the while being physical. The physical is the spiritual in this sense, at least to me.

And I gotta admit, this topic and thread is a whole lot more interesting than talking about Daniel C. Peterson! :lol:
If that is spiritual I am guilty. I bought a piece of sage brush in 1999 and completely changed the landscape as I built the house I now live in . I enjoy https://imgur.com/IaYjhyb my yard and work on it all the time with no spiritual intent at all. I simply laugh at the idea it has to have some link to another realm. It was just me and what I wanted. And yes objective truth is real. I don't think any being sent me instructions to do this. I don't think any theology organized my intentions to do this. I did it because I learned how to understand and appreciate the world around me. I did it because it resonated with me. There were no truths I learned other than my wife and myself creating an atmosphere we both appreciated. But those truths came from real objective facts about the world I live in. That is the entire point.
Wonderful! I don't think any theology led me to what I did either, it was my desire and imagination based on a "mere myth" which ended up being so powerful my entire life has changed because of it. Learning how to appreciate the world IS spirituality. At least for me. Resonating is a great word you use here. In tune is another way to talk about reality. My truths and physical reality came from my imagination and ended up as real "objective" facts in the physical world I experience daily. Objective truth is real, almost as real as subjective truth.
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Philo Sofee »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 2:06 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:28 am


Perhaps there is another angle here as well. There is the rational. There is the irrational. But no one ever even supposes there is also a suprarational. Could it be a three category situation we are in without realizing it? I shall have to check into it. It may be kind of like logical and illogical. But there is also an analogical way...
I think that's a really interesting point. Your term avoids the implied stigma of irrational. I like how you think through these issues.
It's fun to do! Kishkumen has that effect on me... :D
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Kishkumen »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:28 am
Perhaps there is another angle here as well. There is the rational. There is the irrational. But no one ever even supposes there is also a suprarational. Could it be a three category situation we are in without realizing it? I shall have to check into it. It may be kind of like logical and illogical. But there is also an analogical way...
Again, well put, Philo. That came to mind about half an hour after I wrote my post, but by that time I was away from my computer and busy doing other things.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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