An imagined world--it's own thread

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dastardly stem
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An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by dastardly stem »

We've had some recent discussion in a couple of threads titled under Book of Abraham stuff which has nothing to do with Book of Abraham. Plus, no offense to anyone here, Book of Abraham stuff is kinda boring to me, so I figured if we continue we can continue the discussion here.

I've contended that its not rational to think there is a spirit world, or God. There is no good reason to think they exist.

I've gotten push back in a couple of forms. But I don't think the push back is rational either. I certainly agree that there is plenty we do not know. And, we may never know. A contention seems to be since there are a ton of people who claim there is a spirit world or claim knowledge of God, we ought to give room to think that these really exist. I don't find that's a rational position to hold. Possibility does not become probability simply because its what we want, or because many people want it. Its still just a possibility with seemingly countless reasons to disbelieve it.

I quoted Steven Pinker on a lost keys analogy. I'll expand on that a little here. If you lose our keys what steps make most sense in finding them? It feels like those who defend a spirit world suggest it is a good step to buy a ticket to Tennessee fly there in order to find them, because it is quite possible someone snuck in, grabbed your keys and mailed them to Tennessee. Well I thought it could have happened and since I imagined it, it really feels like it happened. I got to get to Tennessee. Once someone concludes their imagination is correct it's really hard to get them to question that imagined conclusion.

"But it's more likely your keys were simply misplaced or your roommate moved them, isn't it?"

"Hey I've looked. They aren't there. I'm certain my imagination is correct here. It feels like the only possibility is someone snuck in grabbed them and mailed them off to TN."

"But they could be in your car, at your office, in your bag. As you tried to put them in your pocket they could have dropped into the bushes on your way in."

at some point you'd, hopefully prevail and convince this person to stop and think about where the keys might be other than in TN. The concept of a spirit world or God has an awkward hold on our reasoning though. It's much harder to escape because they can't ever be found, unlike the lost keys.

"But there's little reason to think there's a spirit world"

"I've seen evidence in my imagination. It's there. It has to be. So many others agree with me too."

"what evidence are you speaking of? I don't think there is any evidence at all. No one has shown it."

"How do you expect someone to show evidence for something that can't show evidence?"

"so your confident in your position because it's non-falsifiable?"

Another analogy, I think most of us are familiar with, coming from Carl Sagan:
"A fire-breathing dragon lives in my garage"

Suppose (I'm following a group therapy approach by the psychologist Richard Franklin[4]) I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick."

And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.
Is there any reason to think the concept of a spirit world is anything more than a person's claim that they have a dragon in their garage? If so, is it not worthless to think there is a spirit world? It seems to be nothing more than an imagined non-place that suffers every ad hoc explanation, or excuse, possible which in the end only explains the place into non existence.

Is it not better for us to be rational agents, going with what we can verify in life, so we aren't running around trying to fulfill our hopes for an imagined world, that each time it gets argued for, shows it's really nothing more than make-believe?
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
msnobody
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by msnobody »

Is it not better for us to be rational agents, going with what we can verify in life, so we aren't running around trying to fulfill our hopes for an imagined world, that each time it gets argued for, shows it's really nothing more than make-believe?
You're really going to think I'm crazy when I post this, but here goes. It happened, period is all I can say.

I've had a couple of experiences where I believe God has shown me visibly a glimpse into the spirit world; to be more specific I believe he was showing me spiritual warfare that was going on. Once was when I had clinical depression and was driving to work and there was an entity in my presence that I saw in the back of my vehicle and also on the hood. It wasn't like I had to turn my head or eyes to see it, or that I was even thinking about anything like this. It was a formed figure with what looked like dark, churning storm clouds inside. Another time was when the LDS missionaries I had gotten to know were at my church speaking with one of our church members and I saw something float from right to left over where we were standing.

for what it's worth, I cannot prove that to anyone or show evidence of that experience.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
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Kishkumen
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Kishkumen »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:06 pm
I quoted Steven Pinker on a lost keys analogy. I'll expand on that a little here. If you lose our keys what steps make most sense in finding them? It feels like those who defend a spirit world suggest it is a good step to buy a ticket to Tennessee fly there in order to find them, because it is quite possible someone snuck in, grabbed your keys and mailed them to Tennessee. Well I thought it could have happened and since I imagined it, it really feels like it happened. I got to get to Tennessee. Once someone concludes their imagination is correct it's really hard to get them to question that imagined conclusion.
This sounds like a scenario cooked up by someone who is working really hard to discredit spirituality through the use of absurd examples. Ordinarily, people who are moved to do something by what they believe to be spiritual motivators do not see themselves as simply randomly imagining things and then, becoming convinced of them, acting on them. There is an unprompted stimulus of some kind in the form of a sense, a feeling, or a dream that makes them think they are being guided to do something they might not otherwise have come up with themselves.

I am open to sayin that these are the result of intuitions based on stimuli that are not fully consciously processed. On the other hand, someone might say that there really is a spiritual motivation prompting these things. I am happy to remain open to both possibilities. I don't need it to be one or the other.

At best this is a person who has no experience of the spiritual trying, with poor results, to imagine what it must be like to be spiritual, except in an unconsciously uncharitable way. ("Since spirituality is stupid, it must be as stupid as this.")
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Dr Exiled
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Dr Exiled »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:19 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:06 pm
I quoted Steven Pinker on a lost keys analogy. I'll expand on that a little here. If you lose our keys what steps make most sense in finding them? It feels like those who defend a spirit world suggest it is a good step to buy a ticket to Tennessee fly there in order to find them, because it is quite possible someone snuck in, grabbed your keys and mailed them to Tennessee. Well I thought it could have happened and since I imagined it, it really feels like it happened. I got to get to Tennessee. Once someone concludes their imagination is correct it's really hard to get them to question that imagined conclusion.
This sounds like a scenario cooked up by someone who is working really hard to discredit spirituality through the use of absurd examples. Ordinarily, people who are moved to do something by what they believe to be spiritual motivators do not see themselves as simply randomly imagining things and then, becoming convinced of them, acting on them. There is an unprompted stimulus of some kind in the form of a sense, a feeling, or a dream that makes them think they are being guided to do something they might not otherwise have come up with themselves.

I am open to sayin that these are the result of intuitions based on stimuli that are not fully consciously processed. On the other hand, someone might say that there really is a spiritual motivation prompting these things. I am happy to remain open to both possibilities. I don't need it to be one or the other.

At best this is a person who has no experience of the spiritual trying, with poor results, to imagine what it must be like to be spiritual, except in an unconsciously uncharitable way. ("Since spirituality is stupid, it must be as stupid as this.")
Spirituality is possible, now what? Concede our politics to someone like Bush who claims to have been influenced by god to start a war with Iraq? Allow someone like Oaks to tell us what to do as far as marriage or abortion? The religious freedom fight seems to be merely the priest class bitching about not having the sway they once did over society and if that is where you are headed, then count me out. However, if "spirituality is possible" just means that there is a possibility that it exists but we don't know and the proof of such is not within our grasp but there are some that want to believe that such is real, then ok. It could be merely the subconscious brain finding patterns that ultimately mean something or perhaps it is spiritual and we as a species are still in our infant stage as far as harnessing this. Just don't tread on me or use it to force a politics onto the rest of us because someone had an emotional experience.
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
dastardly stem
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by dastardly stem »

msnobody wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:03 pm

You're really going to think I'm crazy when I post this, but here goes. It happened, period is all I can say.

I've had a couple of experiences where I believe God has shown me visibly a glimpse into the spirit world; to be more specific I believe he was showing me spiritual warfare that was going on. Once was when I had clinical depression and was driving to work and there was an entity in my presence that I saw in the back of my vehicle and also on the hood. It wasn't like I had to turn my head or eyes to see it, or that I was even thinking about anything like this. It was a formed figure with what looked like dark, churning storm clouds inside. Another time was when the LDS missionaries I had gotten to know were at my church speaking with one of our church members and I saw something float from right to left over where we were standing.

for what it's worth, I cannot prove that to anyone or show evidence of that experience.
I don't think you're crazy. I've seen things too. I don't attribute visions as evidence of a spiritual world. They are brain activity. If we can validate the existence of a spirit world, then it becomes a more viable explanation for any such experiences.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
dastardly stem
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by dastardly stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:19 pm
dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 2:06 pm
I quoted Steven Pinker on a lost keys analogy. I'll expand on that a little here. If you lose our keys what steps make most sense in finding them? It feels like those who defend a spirit world suggest it is a good step to buy a ticket to Tennessee fly there in order to find them, because it is quite possible someone snuck in, grabbed your keys and mailed them to Tennessee. Well I thought it could have happened and since I imagined it, it really feels like it happened. I got to get to Tennessee. Once someone concludes their imagination is correct it's really hard to get them to question that imagined conclusion.
This sounds like a scenario cooked up by someone who is working really hard to discredit spirituality through the use of absurd examples. Ordinarily, people who are moved to do something by what they believe to be spiritual motivators do not see themselves as simply randomly imagining things and then, becoming convinced of them, acting on them. There is an unprompted stimulus of some kind in the form of a sense, a feeling, or a dream that makes them think they are being guided to do something they might not otherwise have come up with themselves.

I am open to sayin that these are the result of intuitions based on stimuli that are not fully consciously processed. On the other hand, someone might say that there really is a spiritual motivation prompting these things. I am happy to remain open to both possibilities. I don't need it to be one or the other.

At best this is a person who has no experience of the spiritual trying, with poor results, to imagine what it must be like to be spiritual, except in an unconsciously uncharitable way. ("Since spirituality is stupid, it must be as stupid as this.")
There's nothing to discredit at this point. The point of the analogy was to suggest, yes anything is possible, but possible doesn't give us good reason to think any old possible claim is rational to adopt. And I'm open to the possibility of a spirit world. I need to see good reason to think it exists. And no, many people who claim to have had visions and have hoped or imagined the world is not good reason to think it exists. Because people imagine their "spiritual experiences" are more meaningful so much so they think there's a spirit world, helps illustrate the point of Sagan's analogy.
Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Kishkumen »

dastardly stem wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:13 pm
There's nothing to discredit at this point. The point of the analogy was to suggest, yes anything is possible, but possible doesn't give us good reason to think any old possible claim is rational to adopt. And I'm open to the possibility of a spirit world. I need to see good reason to think it exists. And no, many people who claim to have had visions and have hoped or imagined the world is not good reason to think it exists. Because people imagine their "spiritual experiences" are more meaningful so much so they think there's a spirit world, helps illustrate the point of Sagan's analogy.
Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder.
If you are to consider the likelihood of a scenario, then treat it fairly. Don't make up something less likely or inapplicable. That is obviously to stack the deck.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm
Spirituality is possible, now what? Concede our politics to someone like Bush who claims to have been influenced by god to start a war with Iraq? Allow someone like Oaks to tell us what to do as far as marriage or abortion? The religious freedom fight seems to be merely the priest class bitching about not having the sway they once did over society and if that is where you are headed, then count me out. However, if "spirituality is possible" just means that there is a possibility that it exists but we don't know and the proof of such is not within our grasp but there are some that want to believe that such is real, then ok. It could be merely the subconscious brain finding patterns that ultimately mean something or perhaps it is spiritual and we as a species are still in our infant stage as far as harnessing this. Just don't tread on me or use it to force a politics onto the rest of us because someone had an emotional experience.
Yeah, you can relax, Exile. No one here is advocating you change your politics or religious choices.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by dastardly stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:17 pm


If you are to consider the likelihood of a scenario, then treat it fairly. Don't make up something less likely or inapplicable. That is obviously to stack the deck.
How is someone who has lost their keys thinking they were mailed away, less likely then someone thinking there is a spirit world? It could be an unfair comparison, I suppose. But how would we know if there is no evidence for a spirit world outside of people's imaginations? It seems whenever anyone tries to justify belief in a spirit world they do nothing more than give us reason to think it does not exist, much like Sagan's dragon. Every explanation works to show its not to be found at all.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: An imagined world--it's own thread

Post by Dr Exiled »

Kishkumen wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:20 pm
Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:35 pm
Spirituality is possible, now what? Concede our politics to someone like Bush who claims to have been influenced by god to start a war with Iraq? Allow someone like Oaks to tell us what to do as far as marriage or abortion? The religious freedom fight seems to be merely the priest class bitching about not having the sway they once did over society and if that is where you are headed, then count me out. However, if "spirituality is possible" just means that there is a possibility that it exists but we don't know and the proof of such is not within our grasp but there are some that want to believe that such is real, then ok. It could be merely the subconscious brain finding patterns that ultimately mean something or perhaps it is spiritual and we as a species are still in our infant stage as far as harnessing this. Just don't tread on me or use it to force a politics onto the rest of us because someone had an emotional experience.
Yeah, you can relax, Exile. No one here is advocating you change your politics or religious choices.
So, is this just about getting atheists and agnostics to concede a possibility?
Myth is misused by the powerful to subjugate the masses all too often.
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