Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

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Morley
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by Morley »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:09 am

One thing that became rather obvious was that church leaders on a day to day basis don’t inquire of the Lord on every subject and every detail. They make business decisions mainly upon their own judgement and common sense. Which results in the same thing that happens with other business leaders. They can at times be off track or mistaken.
Emphasis mine.


MG, I like where you imply that the Church is really a business, after all is said and done.



edit to add: You're referencing the Hoffman photo. You seem to be suggesting that the LDS Church acquiring papers from him was a business decision.
MG 2.0
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by MG 2.0 »

Chap wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:46 pm
OK. So here is all that you posted, with no ellipses.
MG 2.0 wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:09 am


Which was very sad. I found it difficult at the time to see/look at that picture also. I along with I’m sure many others asked themselves why didn’t God put a stop to something so heinous and evil?

From the church’s Gospel Library app:



There was some good that came from this unfortunate episode.

One thing that became rather obvious was that church leaders on a day to day basis don’t inquire of the Lord on every subject and every detail. They make business decisions mainly upon their own judgement and common sense. Which results in the same thing that happens with other business leaders. They can at times be off track or mistaken.

Joseph Smith and Co. didn’t fare so well with the Kirkland Safety Society. But it wasn’t the end of the restoration. And that same restoration continues today.

I suppose this is getting off topic, but I wanted to make a comment on this photograph from church history. Every picture tells a story, and this one is no exception.

I wonder if Nephi might have also made some errors in judgement along the way? If so, did that stop the Lehite expedition to the promised land?

We sure have a tendency to put people on pedestals. And to some degree I suppose that’s warranted.

The mantle is far greater than the intellect. The proof is in the pudding.

Would to God that we were all as gifted and intelligent as the folks here at DiscussMormonism!

Regards,
MG

And my question, directed towards the bolded blue words in your own text, still stands:
Chap wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 12:50 pm
Excuse me – but since it is apparently extremely important to obey the pronouncements of the prophets, how is it possible to tell, at the time they are actually making pronouncements, whether or not they are "off-track or mistaken"?

This is surely a vital point to which any true Mormon believer like yourself needs to have an answer, is it not? So what is your answer?
I look forward to hearing your answer to my specific question.

They make business decisions mainly upon their own judgement and common sense. Which results in the same thing that happens with other business leaders.
All should be highlighted in blue. The whole paragraph fits together. Common for paragraphs.😉

You punched a hole in it twice now.

Regards,
MG
honorentheos
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by honorentheos »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:50 am
Joseph Smith and Co. didn’t fare so well with the Kirkland Safety Society. But it wasn’t the end of the restoration. And that same restoration continues today.
The history is a bit more complex than that. By 1837 the church had effectively split into two groups. The Ohio saints led by Smith and Rigdon were already philosophically divided from the Missouri saints being led by Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers. The group in Kirkland effectively did dissolve with the 12 apostles almost to a man revolting against Joseph Smith. When Smith and Rigdon went to Missouri and effected a takeover of that group they essentially had to overthrow the leadership resulting in Cowdery and the Whitmers being excommunicated while they grafted the head from Ohio onto the healthy body in Missouri. They then undid the tenuous peace that had developed after the termoil that gave rise to Zions Camp, and found themselves not long after moving as a body yet again to Illinois.

I don't imagine the so called restoration would have survived had there not been a second body in Missouri that was performing differently than the group led by Smith in Ohio when the community in Kirkland collapsed.
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by Moksha »

Morley wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 10:41 pm
You seem to be suggesting that the LDS Church acquiring papers from him was a business decision.
Would it be any different than GM or Exxon of yesteryear buying a new and more efficient carburetor design with the intent to suppress its manufacture? If a more efficient carburetor would be advantageous to them in the future, they could then use it. They had the gift of business acumen to a degree and MG would point out, so does the Church.
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by Chap »

Okay. So you want to stress that Mormon prophets behave like business leaders? Fine. That adds force to my question, which I dutifully repeat:
Excuse me – but since it is apparently extremely important to obey the pronouncements of the prophets, how is it possible to tell, at the time they are actually making pronouncements, whether or not they are "off-track or mistaken"?

This is surely a vital point to which any true Mormon believer like yourself needs to have an answer, is it not? So what is your answer?
Please answer that specific question.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

Post by Doctor Steuss »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:34 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 10, 2022 10:20 pm
I really find it odd to think somebody would describe their own work as curious.
That is curious. Are there examples of a similar usage by others in Joseph Smith’s world and writings that were readily available to him?

Examples?
It's used quite a bit in The Late War. First time used is on page 42.

Image


ETA:
The other instances (sans a few that also talk about the sword above). Page 67, "...their weapons of war were of curious workmanship." Page 117, "...with devices curiously wrought." Page 193, in talking about sea vessels, "... abundance of curious workmanship therein, such as surpassed the comprehension of all the wise men in the east."

And the doosie... page 195. "... curious works, like unto a clock, and as it were a large ball."


ETA #2: I'm a dolt. Just noticed honor's comment was about someone referring to their own work.
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