Interpreter apologists wrestle with Nephi’s transoceanic vessel

[bill4long]

[dupe]

[bill4long]

I wonder where that shot was taken?

Looks like Marin County. And such a white and delightsome bunch of Caucasians they were!

[Shulem]

More recap just for fun:

7 And it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had been in the land of Bountiful for the space of many days, the voice of the Lord came unto me, saying: Arise, and get thee into the mountain. And it came to pass that I arose and went up into the mountain, and cried unto the Lord.

8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.

• After several days had passed in the land of Bountiful, Nephi climbs a nearby mountain to pray

• The command is given to construct a ship

• This ship is to built according to a certain plan known only to the Lord

Up until this point we are not given any indication that Nephi would receive outside assistance from anyone other than his own family clan. They wandered into Bountiful, a wild coastal wilderness which was prepared for them by the Lord until they were ready to set sail to the promised land.

9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?

10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.

• Nephi pops the big QUESTION!

• Where do I go to find ore to make tools?

Now we KNOW that Nephi didn't have a clue where to find ore in order to make the required tools necessary to construct a ship. This is PROOF that there was no civilization in Bountiful and no shipyard inhabited by locals. There was nobody to lend a hand in providing ore or tools for Nephi because they were ALONE. Afterward, the Lord told Nephi exactly where to go to find ore whereby he could forge tools and begin preparation to work raw materials to construct the ship. It was a matter of finding the ore in the earth's crust and prepare it themselves. Contrary to what apologists might think, there was no other people in whom they could purchase, trade, or barter materials in which to construct their ship. There is NOTHING in the text to give anyone the idea that there was anyone else living in Bountiful.

[Doctor Scratch]

Here’s what I don’t understand: the Mopologists have millions of dollars to spend, so why don’t they reproduce these various Book of Mormon accomplishments? Now *that* would be a worthwhile and interesting filmic enterprise—let them do a documentary/ reality show where they attempt to recreate Nephi’s journey. Let them dump Kyler Rasmussen, Neal Rappleye, Steve Smoot, and John Gee onto a desert beach in Arabia and have them build a seaworthy vessel using no knowledge except for prayer.

They won’t ever do it, though, which is a real testament to their limits as believers.

[Shulem]

11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.

Oh give me a freaking break! Here we have Joseph Smith applying the two-stone fire starter technique to make his story look old and authentic. As if there wasn't already a fire made whereby they were able to cook their food. As it were, they had been in Bountiful for the space of many days and nobody had a light? NOBODY in Bountiful had an existing flame or a fire pit where they could simply get a light? Didn't they burn torches at night so they could see within their camp? But Smith saw this as an opportunity to bring up striking stones to make a spark but he should have done that when they FIRST got to Bountiful not after the space of many days. Joe, you blew it! Hole in the script. Bad timing, dude.

Shulem has caught Joe Smith red handed making crap up to make his story look authentic. But he messed up in the timing and it proves that Smith did not consider the darkness of night and the need to have fire in order to see and maintain a camp. They would have had fire in their camp on the first night they arrived in Bountiful and kept a fire pit going 24/7.



Hey, Philo, what do you think of them apples?

[Tator]

I wonder where that shot was taken?

Looks like Marin County. And such a white and delightsome bunch of Caucasians they were!

I was thinking Oregon coast between Gold Beach and Port Orford but West coast for sure.

[Moksha]

Let them dump Kyler Rasmussen, Neal Rappleye, Steve Smoot, and John Gee onto a desert beach in Arabia and have them build a seaworthy vessel using no knowledge except for prayer.

Don't do it! They would probably get terrible sunburns, heatstroke, and have their testimonies shaken. Trying to prove fictional stories true under impossible circumstances will lead to failure and disappointment.

However, an Interpreter CGI recreation would be fun, especially if they added tail fins and outboard motors to the ship. Stops along the way in Shangri La, Honahlee, and the Canary Islands before landing at Smith's Point on the Delmarva Penninsula would be exciting.

[Physics Guy]

• Nephi pops the big QUESTION!

• Where do I go to find ore to make tools?

This is an example of what I mean by saying that the Book of Mormon reads as though it is in the genre, not of myth, but of fraud—regardless of who might have composed it, and how or even why they did that.

The text itself continually goes out of its way to provide more concrete detail than would be needed just to tell its story in a Once-upon-a-time, suspended-disbelief way of storytelling. And yet the excessive detail is not actually realistic at all. It's frequently ridiculous and succeeds only in drawing attention to how implausible the story is.

The detail is not usually interesting enough in itself to count as additional story material in itself, either. It's often a clumsy and tedious interruption of the story, raising a potentially interesting question but then ducking out of it disappointingly with a miracle that happens offstage and is not described.

The only apparent purpose of the excessive but inadequate detail is to try to seem realistic, even though it doesn't succeed. The effort to seem real at the literal level is palpable. The Book itself comes across as a kid telling a wildly unbelievable story and regularly punctuating it with declarations that it all really happened, swear to God, totally not making this up, not one word, cross my heart.

That's not myth. As a literary form, that is fraud. The intent of the abstractly inferred author was intent to deceive, whoever the real author was.

[Shulem]

Let them dump Kyler Rasmussen, Neal Rappleye, Steve Smoot, and John Gee onto a desert beach in Arabia and have them build a seaworthy vessel using no knowledge except for prayer.

Bear in mind that they have to subsist there at Bountiful "for the space of many days" and continue as they did while they journeyed in the wilderness without the light of fire and eat only raw meat. They must rely on the Lord to be their spiritual light while at night and praise him while they chew on raw meat during the day. Then, while in Bountiful, after "the space of many days" after Rasmussen climbs a mountain to talk to God, instructions and permission will be granted whereby they may finally build a fire. Imagine that!

• Make a bellows of the skins of beasts

• Strike two stones together to make a fire for the bellows

• Construct a ship

What utter misery. The Book of Mormon really is a miserable and disgusting book.

[drumdude]

Rasmussen thinks it is plausible within 200 orders of magnitude. Give or take a couple thousand orders of magnitude. Roughly.