DiscussMormonism.com

In another thread, Physics Guy wrote (emphasis added)--

https://discussmormonism.com/viewtopic.php?p=2785088#p2785088 wrote:*** There is something that rings true about Alma’s tree. Religious faith is indeed something that you can fake until you make, at least up to a point. Invest enough in it, put enough of yourself into it, and it puts roots into you and becomes part of you. Lots of other activities can work like that as well: hobbies, foods, relationships. Just because something doesn’t thrive and grow big fast all by itself doesn’t mean you can’t gradually nurture it into size and solidity.

To me that’s a two-sided truth. You can build a strong marriage over a lifetime but you can also hang on to an abusive relationship. Alma may say to a recent convert who is having second thoughts because they’re not getting so much out of it all, Just hang on, feed your tree, it gets better. Sometimes “hang on, it gets better” is indeed good advice, I think. But if I felt I had a nice, solid tree, Alma would make me worry that maybe all I had was the work that I’d put into it myself.

If I try to think what the Bible says about Alma’s tree principle, I think of the prophetic scorn for idolaters: they work hard making their gods, which cannot carry them but rather have to be carried. ***

Obviously, there's the sunk cost fallacy being alluded to here.

Moroni 10:4 "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." The italicized words can be looked at as the excuse why you did not get the Holy Ghost manifestation promised--you need to make your heart more sincere, your intent more genuine and have more faith in Christ to get the manifestation. But there in lies the rub. You haven't invested enough to get the sunk cost fallacy overcoming you and proclaiming you have had the Holy Ghost manifestation of truth. You need to invest more is the rely when you explain you did not get the Holy Ghost manifestation.

But, for those who are TBMs and believe because they have had such a manifestation, I would like to hear (a) if you think that a person can convince himself or herself of most anything through investment (dedicated devotion to an idea)? and (b) if so, how did the manifestion differ from self-convincing one into belief?

Bump for TBMs. Please describe the strongest self-induced emotion you have experienced and contrast it with the Holy Ghost's witness to you.

I feel "the spirit" very strongly when listening to pipe organ music played in a large cathedral. It's hard to find the words when you're surrounded by believers and music and thousands of years of tradition. It's impossible not to feel something during that experience, and even to feel a yearning to connect to the divine and religious human traditions.

I just think that the null hypothesis should be that " feeling the spirit" is identical to emotional elevation, unless proven otherwise. A lot of people "feel the spirit" at rock concerts too. Which is why megachurches are very successful combining the two...

I'll also put Mormonism's milquetoast Hosana Shout against Muslims feeling the spirit any day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJz_BZL59aI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NDy6Rlijzo

drumdude wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 9:05 pm

I'll also put Mormonism's milquetoast Hosana Shout against Muslims feeling the spirit any day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJz_BZL59aI

this hosana, which I have not heard before sounds like dense boredom as a version of feeling the spirit. There are church services that slip into that same sleepy mode of spirit.

It is obvious that there are all sorts of feeling the spirit. football game spirit, concert spirit, fourth of July spirit, Christmas spirit, Saturday night fever and more. One can probably do so some sorting of types of spirit feeling according to what activity and consciousness was involved. So I cannot speak as tbm, well except I was a long time ago. I can remember thinking that feeling the Holy Ghost type spirit was connected to religious realization or understanding. It was to be illumination not some emotion. I could say perhaps I didn't get the message but I do remember in the past some tbm posters stating that receiving understanding was essential to holding that feelings were clearly from the Spirit.

I suppose even now I might accept that pleasant feelings about some religious setting , music or event could have some relationship to the Holy Spirit as gentle encouragement. I would not make decisions based upon such pleasant feelings but I am not above enjoying the music.

/////
I do not think we have any tbm posters currently willing to converse but many of us were tbm in the past. don't be shy your memory can speak to this question. Did I miss the fuller teaching? After all I fell short of getting the Book of Mormon confirmations when I fell into uncertainty.(does the confirmation only work when you do not have uncertainty?).

Moroni's promise is interesting in many ways, but one that strikes me is that it is geared towards Christians (which suits Joseph Smith's milieu). Who else is likely to pray with the required "faith in Christ"? Atheists need not apply; nor need the followers of the other major and minor non-Christian religions.

I remember missionaries in Scotland telling me about asking a family in our neighbourhood to pray about the Book of Mormon, and how they just weren't getting results. The family was from an eastern non-Christian tradition, and were praying while making food and incense offerings at their little home shrine, complete with images of their deities.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:19 pm

It is obvious that there are all sorts of feeling the spirit. football game spirit, concert spirit, fourth of July spirit, Christmas spirit, Saturday night fever and more. One can probably do so some sorting of types of spirit feeling according to what activity and consciousness was involved. So I cannot speak as tbm, well except I was a long time ago. I can remember thinking that feeling the Holy Ghost type spirit was connected to religious realization or understanding. It was to be illumination not some emotion. I could say perhaps I didn't get the message but I do remember in the past some tbm posters stating that receiving understanding was essential to holding that feelings were clearly from the Spirit.

I suppose even now I might accept that pleasant feelings about some religious setting , music or event could have some relationship to the Holy Spirit as gentle encouragement. I would not make decisions based upon such pleasant feelings but I am not above enjoying the music.

/////
* * * Did I miss the fuller teaching? After all I fell short of getting the Book of Mormon confirmations when I fell into uncertainty.(does the confirmation only work when you do not have uncertainty?).

Do you recall any details about what those tbm posters 'understood' that they associated with illumination from the Spirit?

Music seems to be a frequent trigger of emotions/"the Spirit".

sock puppet wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:08 pm

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Thu Jun 02, 2022 11:19 pm

It is obvious that there are all sorts of feeling the spirit. football game spirit, concert spirit, fourth of July spirit, Christmas spirit, Saturday night fever and more. One can probably do so some sorting of types of spirit feeling according to what activity and consciousness was involved. So I cannot speak as tbm, well except I was a long time ago. I can remember thinking that feeling the Holy Ghost type spirit was connected to religious realization or understanding. It was to be illumination not some emotion. I could say perhaps I didn't get the message but I do remember in the past some tbm posters stating that receiving understanding was essential to holding that feelings were clearly from the Spirit.

I suppose even now I might accept that pleasant feelings about some religious setting , music or event could have some relationship to the Holy Spirit as gentle encouragement. I would not make decisions based upon such pleasant feelings but I am not above enjoying the music.

/////
* * * Did I miss the fuller teaching? After all I fell short of getting the Book of Mormon confirmations when I fell into uncertainty.(does the confirmation only work when you do not have uncertainty?).

Do you recall any details about what those tbm posters 'understood' that they associated with illumination from the Spirit?

Music seems to be a frequent trigger of emotions/"the Spirit".

Sock Puppet, Poster I was recalling was well in the past so I do not recall details. I am sure it was not some special revelation containing things he had not been taught. It is fairly clear that this enlightening could have been the natural processess of the brain making new or clearer connections for some ideas. The lightbulb turning on is a common image we all know. I do not think there is a way to make a sure distinction between Holy Spirit and natural brain processes.

I do remain quite puzzled as to why emotion and music should be equated with Spirit. Which emotions and why? Which music? I think music touches emotions and awareness we have in our mind. It can bring things to mind for us to reflect on . Perhaps music can bring to mind an awareness of a spiritual dimension to living. That is a very imprecise use of the word spirit. It could be an awareness completely contained in the natural processes.Meditative experience with or without chemical assists could be that sort of spiritual experience. Music might bring that to mind.

A couple of nights ago I listened to Coltrane's album Sun Ship. It is one of his late more extreme explorations. I think he was trying to open a window to spiritual awareness but it certainly not music which would make you contemplate religious doctrine

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:37 pm

I do not think there is a way to make a sure distinction between Holy Spirit and natural brain processes.

That might be. It simply might be a matter of the individual deciding to attribute what they are feeling to some Spiritual witness from the divine rather than chemical responses contained within the cranium. On a mission, we were instrusted whenever an investigator would get emotional, to tell them that was the Spirit. We were making the ascription rather than letting them get there on there own.
Of course, not all of them agreed with us.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:37 pm

I do remain quite puzzled as to why emotion and music should be equated with Spirit. Which emotions and why? Which music? I think music touches emotions and awareness we have in our mind. It can bring things to mind for us to reflect on . Perhaps music can bring to mind an awareness of a spiritual dimension to living. That is a very imprecise use of the word spirit. It could be an awareness completely contained in the natural processes.Meditative experience with or without chemical assists could be that sort of spiritual experience. Music might bring that to mind.

Many religious meetings include music. Our minds like what music does. I've had gut feelings to do X or not to do Y. For me, it is like learning geometry--the answers came quick, but it took some effort to show why. For me, doing X or not doing Y can be set forth in logic steps, if I take the time to do so. It's easier just to do X or not do Y with giving it no further thought. I've had emotions that run the gamut, and when I was a religious believer, the emotion that I most often equated to "the Spirit" was when it was a comforting emotion. Sometimes the Holy Ghost is referred to as the Comforter. But I get the same feeling in contexts completely devoid of divine context. A warm shower. Fresh sheets on the bed. A lover's embrace. Etc. All comforting, but not something I would ascribe as 'spiritual' or leading me to believe a certain text or emmissary to be from a God.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:37 pm

A couple of nights ago I listened to Coltrane's album Sun Ship. It is one of his late more extreme explorations. I think he was trying to open a window to spiritual awareness but it certainly not music which would make you contemplate religious doctrine

I'll check that album out, for musical purposes. From your description, I am wondering if it had a more ethereal a feel than his other music.

sock puppet wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 7:50 pm

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:37 pm

I do not think there is a way to make a sure distinction between Holy Spirit and natural brain processes.

That might be. It simply might be a matter of the individual deciding to attribute what they are feeling to some Spiritual witness from the divine rather than chemical responses contained within the cranium. On a mission, we were instrusted whenever an investigator would get emotional, to tell them that was the Spirit. We were making the ascription rather than letting them get there on there own.
Of course, not all of them agreed with us.

huckelberry wrote: ↑

Sat Jun 04, 2022 4:37 pm

A couple of nights ago I listened to Coltrane's album Sun Ship. It is one of his late more extreme explorations. I think he was trying to open a window to spiritual awareness but it certainly not music which would make you contemplate religious doctrine

I'll check that album out, for musical purposes. From your description, I am wondering if it had a more ethereal a feel than his other music.

sockpuppet You point out missionary instruction as contributing to the expectation that certain emotions are the Spirit. That is at part of explanation for the rather peculiar Mormon focus on feeling the Spirit. I suppose a missionary does not want to introduce ambiguities. Pleasant emotions may be a simple path if someone is wishing to pursue to that path.

I found my comments about Coltrane's music were short as I found myself a bit uncertain to my own meaning. Sun ship is from about the same time as Meditations or Love Supreme which have stated religious intentions. I thought of them because the are rather opposite to ethereal and not like what sort of music might give one comfortable religious feelings.

//
adding perhaps there is commonality with Sufism , whirling dirvish form of meditation to allow ones awareness to touch on a more spiritual dimension of life.