Mopologists at war

[drumdude]

These film projects [Witnesses] represent one of the ways in which some of us have teamed up together to do positive apologetics. As James Hawes observes, “a purely defensive war only ever ends one way.”

I came to an interesting thought reading Daniel's framing of his work as an offensive push in a war. Who is Daniel fighting against? What is the shape of this war? Are there any analogues to current events that might be worth exploring?

It strikes me that Mormonism's largest and most fierce modern day opponents are former Mormons. This was not the case decades ago when DCP was cutting his teeth. Back then, he was fighting against Evangelical Christians and anti-cult ministries. Dan could easily run circles around these evangelicals, many of whom had only a superficial understanding of Mormon doctrine.

But then everything changed. The Internet and pocasts allowed ex-Mormons, and questioning Mormons to find each other and discuss Mormonism with each other. Suddenly the critics that apologists were dealing with were most decidedly NOT ignorant of Mormonism. Those critics had lived it, often for decades. Most gave the best 2 years of their early adulthood to the church. Many had donated tens and hundreds of thousands in tithing.

This parallels (in a small way) to the war in Ukraine against the remnants of the USSR. Russia's most fierce opponents in this world are the peoples of the former soviet states. They know exactly what Russia is and how it operates, in the most intimate way. They know all Russia's dirty tricks. They are hardened against Russian misinformation, because of what they have been through. Western countries do not have this vast cultural memory of the horrors of living as a Soviet territory. Western countries did not have to endure their family members being taken to Siberia. Or having their homes taken over by Russian families. Or being tortured in an underground KGB dungeon for opposing the Kremlin.

Now I'm not saying that the Mormon religion is identical to Russia, I'm simply pointing out some striking similarities between two organizations. Both Russia and the Mormon church are incredibly wealthy, Russia has mostly passive income from its fossil fuel reserves, and LDS Inc. has a steady passive income stream from tithing and investment dividends. Both organizations are led by a small number of families, with a staggering amount of nepotism and corruption and complete lack of financial transparency. Both organizations engage in global gaslighting propaganda efforts, through slickly produced television, film and online media.

And yet, despite all of these vast resources and millions of members, both organizations are faltering.

Putin really believed his propaganda, he actually thought that the former Soviet states yearned to be Soviet again. He and the Russian soldiers sent to Ukraine believed they would be greeted as friends. Similarly, Dan Peterson probably really believed Witnesses would be a box office hit. How could it not be, if the church were true?

The cold hard bucket of water, that douse of reality, is starting to hit organizations like Russia and the LDS church hard. You can tell Russians that Russia is the best country on earth, but at some point the wheels hit the road and people start to put the facts together. Likewise in the Mormon church, you can keep telling the members this is the One True Religion, and to stay in the boat, but facts slowly erode through the propaganda like an acid eats through steel. One way or another, truth prevails. Freedom prevails. And nepotism and corruption eats itself.

The war in Ukraine will likely be a long one, as the Ukrainians are still a vastly smaller force. They are engaging in guerrilla tactics in the occupied territory, something Dan Peterson knows works very well. Similarly, the ex-Mormon world is fighting a vastly superior force - the LDS corporation. John Dehlin makes a few hundred thousand a year. The LDS corporation makes that in passive interest every day.

Mormons, especially Mormon apologists, really need to ask themselves, "who are we fighting against?" And why are they winning, if God is on our side? Are we the baddies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU

[Dr Exiled]

They are definitely fighting against their own population. It would be interesting to read internal minutes of the Q15 meetings around the time of Hoffman or when the papyrus was given to the church in the late 60's, etc. Packer had to get his "some things aren't useful" regarding history from meetings he attended with the Q15. I am in the camp that they have to know how problematic the truth claims are and choose to press forward with the nonsense anyway. It sure looks like there is at least a deliberate attempt to put their collective heads in the sand, if not actual malice.

I wonder how the Q15 react when they don't actually see Jesus? Is there a crisis of faith class for the new Q15 members? How do they justify the emptiness of the special witness claims? Priesthood blessings don't work, even for the Q15. They don't get revelations that mean anything for society at large or even the membership. Sure, they can con themselves into believing that they get inspired to call their buddies to higher callings, etc. Or let's put another useless temple here or there. Or let's change the schedule or words around. However, the big issues never get any benefit from their supposed powers of prophecy or discernment.

Hence, the war on the membership. The members are the potential enemies and the leadership and apologists have always fashioned their defenses accordingly. Brigham Young had dissenters killed. Today, members are taught to not speak about troubling issues out loud. The church never makes mistakes they are taught, blah, blah, blah.

[drumdude]

It's quite a disturbing sight to see a Mormon shut down when talking about an issue that makes the church look bad. They're programmed as well as any Soviet citizen to never, EVER speak ill of the lord's anointed. And once a member sees that you no longer support The Bretheren, they will inform against you just like John Dehlin's ward members did.

It's just such a long list. Calling leaders "The Bretheren." Baptizing people in a font held up by golden calfs. Slitting your own throat while wearing a chef's hat and green apron, under a million dollar chandelier that looks like it belongs in Donald Trumps' bathroom.

There's just no escaping the thought... "are we the baddies?"

[bill4long]

It strikes me that Mormonism's largest and most fierce modern day opponents are former Mormons. This was not the case decades ago when DCP was cutting his teeth. Back then, he was fighting against Evangelical Christians and anti-cult ministries. Dan could easily run circles around these evangelicals, many of whom had only a superficial understanding of Mormon doctrine. But then everything changed.

I have watched it all unfold before my very eyes for almost 40 years.

Excellent post.

[Rivendale]

They are definitely fighting against their own population. It would be interesting to read internal minutes of the Q15 meetings around the time of Hoffman or when the papyrus was given to the church in the late 60's, etc. Packer had to get his "some things aren't useful" regarding history from meetings he attended with the Q15. I am in the camp that they have to know how problematic the truth claims are and choose to press forward with the nonsense anyway. It sure looks like there is at least a deliberate attempt to put their collective heads in the sand, if not actual malice.

I wonder how the Q15 react when they don't actually see Jesus? Is there a crisis of faith class for the new Q15 members? How do they justify the emptiness of the special witness claims? Priesthood blessings don't work, even for the Q15. They don't get revelations that mean anything for society at large or even the membership. Sure, they can con themselves into believing that they get inspired to call their buddies to higher callings, etc. Or let's put another useless temple here or there. Or let's change the schedule or words around. However, the big issues never get any benefit from their supposed powers of prophecy or discernment.

Hence, the war on the membership. The members are the potential enemies and the leadership and apologists have always fashioned their defenses accordingly. Brigham Young had dissenters killed. Today, members are taught to not speak about troubling issues out loud. The church never makes mistakes they are taught, blah, blah, blah.

I remember back in the 70's when a central Utah man had claimed to find plates that had parallels to Mormonism. The leadership seemed awfully skeptical. Now why would they do that? It is almost like the Kinderhook plates and Joseph Smith. If Joseph knew he had made some prop plates and suddenly some newly discovered plates showed up he is in trouble. The truth claims of Mormonism due to the newly found plates in the 50s parallel this.


I think the modern initiation into the Q15 have safeguards to prevent a disappointment when they don't see Jesus. Things like; we are in a different age now and modern miracles are not needed. Several second anointed apostates have stated they were disappointed. And to your malice thought. I think that is exactly why the Gospel Topics Essays emerged. This was a safeguard to prevent lawsuits similar to Tom Phillip's attempt.

[Philo Sofee]

This is a deeply profound thread! It gives a nuance I hadn't technically thought through. But Mormonism's enemies have actually changed! The totally unfortunate thing is their ridiculous mindset that critics and ex-Mormons are their enemies. Ignorance and the twin lust for controlling power and money are their actual enemies because it blinds them to the value of humans as actual people (and the warning in the Book of Mormon, which, obviously, the church doesn't actually believe). Sure they will disagree with this, but that is irrelevant. It is their actions that betray them these days, not their words. It is easy to see through their phony teachings and hopes and fervent wishes.

And I suspect the literal physical proof of Holy Ghost testimonies which brings out the absolute heinous worse in their own, such as the Laffertys and Chad and Lorie Daybells (of Rexburg, Idaho fame or infamy). These were people whom testified as fervently as any prophet in the past 60 years of their own revelations from God, and who carried those revelations out, in full ***obedience*** to God, a major Mormon teaching. Obedience is biting The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints in their ass with proof of it's truly devilish end.

Ex-Mormons are not the enemies, they are the prophets for Mormonism today warning the people get out while you can! Wake up the devil has put you entirely in his power and you are sleep walking through life. And if apologists such as Peterson and Midgley can't pick up the pace and do better work than mere rigged films and sophomoric scholarly analysis of the current damning issues against the church (of its own making), the people will continue waking up to the truth, and a brutal, but freeing truth it is.

[Moksha]

Now I'm not saying that the Mormon religion is identical to Russia,...

Excellent point, Russians eat borscht. However, both might be reported to Authorities.

[Father Francis]

Excellent point, Russians eat borscht. However, both might be reported to Authorities.

Borscht is delicious! When I was in culinary school the last semester had a class in which each student took a turn running the restaurant at the school. When it was my turn I made a menu mostly based on Russian cuisine. I'm not Russian, or even of Russian descent. I just figured no one else was going to pick anything similar. One of the five courses was borscht with pelmeni. It was a success.

[Moksha]

One of the five courses was borscht with pelmeni. It was a success

Both of the items on your five-course menu sound good, however, I suspect the LDS apologists will stick with bologna since it is a staple in their rhetoric.

[drumdude]

One of the five courses was borscht with pelmeni. It was a success

Both of the items on your five-course menu sound good, however, I suspect the LDS apologists will stick with bologna since it is a staple in their rhetoric.

ba dum tssss