“Such things simply must not be forgotten”: An Opportunity for Reflection at “SeN”

[Doctor Scratch]

Practically like clockwork, a new entry has appeared on Dr. Peterson’s blog, and if you’ve been following it lately, you know that he’s currently on vacation in Germany, where he has been drinking vast quantities of apple juice and stuffing himself silly with wienerschnitzel and kartoffelnsalat. Being a Mopologist, though, he’s inevitably drawn (much like Midgley) to the old Nazi death camps—Dachau in this case. He provides an anecdote about this:

With several friends, we spent a substantial part of yesterday visiting the former Nazi concentration camp of Dachau, which is located in what is now pretty much a pleasant suburb of Munich. Fifty-two years ago, I was scheduled to visit Dachau with a group of recent high school graduates during my first visit to Europe. Our tour guide, though, was a neo-Nazi — not at all the stereotypical skinhead thug that I would have expected; he was the son of an SS officer, yes, but he was also a charming young fellow, completely fluent in English and a student in what is now known as the Technische Universität Wien (the highly ranked Vienna Technical University) — and he really, really didn’t want us to go, because, he said, the Holocaust was an anti-German myth.

And he goes on to note that he’s visited more than one of these camps, and he gives his reason for doing so:

I’ve now been to three of the former Nazi labor camps — Mauthausen (which I’ll be visiting again tomorrow) and Buchenwald and Dachau — which I have done, to a significant degree but not solely, out of a sense of moral obligation. Such places and such things simply must not be forgotten.

I assume that he is saying this out of the belief that memorializing horrific events and places like this will help to prevent them from happening again. Then again, the backdrop against which he’s saying this is ironic.

After all, apart from his vacation, the primary fixation of his blog has been Under the Banner of Heaven—a program which puts LDS-related atrocities front and center. I wonder: is Dr. Peterson rather like the young Neo-Nazi from his anecdote, regarding incidents like Mountain Meadows and the Lafferty murders as “anti-Mormon myth”? Has he visited the monument at Mountain Meadows in order to gravely reflect on its meaning, and it’s connection to his faith? At the end of his blog entry, he provides a translation of a passage from a text he bought at the Dachau gift shop (!):

When people who have enjoyed the same upbringing that I did, who speak the same words that I do and love the same books and the same music and the same paintings that I do — when these people are in no way protected from the possibility of becoming monsters and of doing things that we never would have believed possible for people of our time except in uniquely pathological cases, on what basis can I be confident that I myself am protected from such things?

A valid point. Granted, MMM and the Lafferty murders are not the same thing as the Holocaust, but I’m struck by Dr. Peterson’s evident blind-spots here. During Under the Banner of Heaven’s run, he’s repeatedly hosted comments from Jim Bennett that are extraordinarily dismissive of and even mocking of these tragedies.

I guess that the Holocaust is sufficiently far-removed from his backyard that DCP is able to genuflect with proper solemnity, but when it comes to fellow Latter-day Saints doing horrific things, his moralistic brain takes a vacation?

A very interesting and revealing post, in any case.

[drumdude]

Let’s try the famous Milgram prison experiment with Mormons and test Daniel’s claim of moral superiority.

I expect divine command theory to work very well in that situation… Gott mit uns

[Gadianton]

on what basis can I be confident that I myself am protected from such things?

It's a great question that we should all reflect on.

I have to ask though, isn't the answer - a sincere belief in God? If not, then what good is belief in God?

According to DCP, all kinds of studies show that believers live healthier and happier lives. It's transparently obvious to him that there is only nihilism without belief in God. Now, DCP says that atheists can still ignorantly make good moral decisions, but at what point does theory and reality get so strained that it's untenable to accept the theory?

If on the one hand, believing in God can make your life a practical success on every level, then should it not offer the same effectiveness in making good moral decisions such as, not going along with a holocaust? It would be incredibly weird if belief made your life great while didn't help to avoid genocide. In fact, such a disconnect might be a moral hazard.

Now, he may very well clarify upon reading my response that in fact, belief in God does with similar proportionality make a person's life good, and protect a person against participating in atrocities. However, if that is the case, then why the disconnect in his own concerns? Why is it so obvious that belief makes life great but he has to wonder about avoiding atrocities?

He could ultimately argue that his concern about atrocities was just rhetorical, and reflected the more serious nature of the problem at hand.

[Doctor Scratch]

A great response, Dr. Robbers. DCP is fond of throwing “atheist regimes” in Gemli’s face, but the quote he translates and offers here is clearly a call for him to reflect on his own place in all of this—and the role of his comrades. Sure, he can point to the Holocaust or Stalinist Russia, but staring him right back in the face are MMM, Mark Hoffman, the Lafferty murders, and so on. And just like the neo-Nazi in his story, he too is capable of being “charming.”

[Philo Sofee]

A great response, Dr. Robbers. DCP is fond of throwing “atheist regimes” in Gemli’s face, but the quote he translates and offers here is clearly a call for him to reflect on his own place in all of this—and the role of his comrades. Sure, he can point to the Holocaust or Stalinist Russia, but staring him right back in the face are MMM, Mark Hoffman, the Lafferty murders, and so on. And just like the neo-Nazi in his story, he too is capable of being “charming.”

Excellent observations Dean Robbers and Dr. Scratch. I would also add to the mix a direct contemporary TODAY situation of the same caliber as the Lafferty's, the case of Chad and Lori Daybell right in the HEART of BYU Idaho country, Rexburg, Idaho, the singular most Mormon place in Idaho and under the surface seething with conspiracies and deal breakers, Covenant breakers, adherants to no longer following the Prophets, and false swearers - who are still temple card holding Mormons. They have gained such an enormous underground following that ONLY in Rexburg have the Brethren called for a 2nd temple to be built, with the phony front that the students themselves all want to do more temple work. The actual reason is because the church is being forced into a MUST DO situation of showing the conspirators, apostates, and secret combinations with Rexburg Mormonism who has the actual power, the CHURCH, and IT ALONE.

[Moksha]

Our tour guide, though, was a neo-Nazi — not at all the stereotypical skinhead thug that I would have expected; he was the son of an SS officer, yes, but he was also a charming young fellow, completely fluent in English and a student in what is now known as the Technische Universität Wien (the highly ranked Vienna Technical University) — and he really, really didn’t want us to go, because, he said, the Holocaust was an anti-German myth.

That will make for a welcome tale at the Free Enterprise Conference where Dr. Peterson is a frequent presenter. Know your audience and tell them what they long to hear.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

DCP conveniently never mentions that Germany and the members of the Nazi party were largely Christians. Germany was overwhelmingly a Christian nation during WWII.

I’ve seen him have several mini-meltdowns at SeN when someone brings up that fact. It just doesn’t fit into DCP’s narrative.


https://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010 ... e-christia

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/ ... nazi-state

[dastardly stem]

I've enjoyed contemplating the thoughts above as horrific as the themes underlying them are. When we all arrive at the judgment seat and we learn that the true religion was the racist one which taught how godly polygamy is I suppose we'll all reflect at that moment how foolish it was for us to think God should actually have something good in him, all things considered. In his gruff style, no doubt, He'll blather, "Not so, ye foolish ones. From the start I asked murder and all sorts of destruction from my followers. Why would you have thought differently?"

The Daybell's seem like horrific monsters hidden in the midst of a kinder Mormonism. Really they were simply carrying out God's illustrious work, prematurely sending back the innocent so God could use them as he pleases. "he has a greater work for them to do" after all.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

A great response, Dr. Robbers. DCP is fond of throwing “atheist regimes” in Gemli’s face, but the quote he translates and offers here is clearly a call for him to reflect on his own place in all of this—and the role of his comrades. Sure, he can point to the Holocaust or Stalinist Russia, but staring him right back in the face are MMM, Mark Hoffman, the Lafferty murders, and so on. And just like the neo-Nazi in his story, he too is capable of being “charming.”

Don’t forget that BY’s bodyguard, Porter Rockwell, assassinated ~140 people and was proud of that fact. The ‘prophet’ had people murdered in pursuit of consolidating his grip on Deseret.

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

The Mountain Meadows Massacre certainly isn’t the Restoration’s finest hour. It’s anything but faith-promoting. But it shouldn’t be exploited as a weapon against the Church or against religious belief, either. It’s too complex to be reducible to a self-serving slogan on a partisan bumper sticker.

-_-

Why do Mormons speak like this? It’s so tiresome, to read vauguespeech that is written to blur fact, diminish sin, and to create moral plausibility. It’s pretty gross, and it’s sad to see a man who once held such promise, promise framed in a yearbook from those hallowed days, glowing with potential, hailing from San Gabriel HS, to render a talent into quackery and hackery. What a shame. He should’ve gone into medicine. :/

- Doc