"You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

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drumdude
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by drumdude »

If there is a hell, Daniel is going to need thicker sun shades than that to account for his actions leading so many astray on Earth.
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Doctor Scratch »

jimjam wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:42 pm
I'm a long-time lurker on the board, but finally decided to post to throw out an idea that I've had about DCP, FARMS, and BYU. I haven't had time to really develop the idea, but I thought I would throw it out to see what people think.
Welcome to to board, JimJam! I look forward to reading your posts.
I've long wondered whether DCP's firing from FARMS was ultimately a consequence of the Proposition 8 battle. The church was clearly surprised by the vehemence of the reaction to their effort to pass Prop 8. Afterwards, we started hearing talks in conference and statements from the First Presidency emphasizing the importance of civility in public discourse.

In 2010, KSL Radio ended its relationship with long-running Sean Hannity. I assume that this was one of the top ranked radio programs in the Salt Lake market at the time, yet the explanation for bumping Sean was simply:
KSL News wrote:We acknowledge the great partnership we've had with Sean Hannity and appreciate his contributions to furthering public dialogue," said [KSL Broadcasting Chief Executive Officer Mark] Willes. "At the end of the day, we simply feel our future success and competitive advantage reside in creating unique local content, and that is our objective for developing replacement programming.
In 2012, of course, DCP was fired and FARMS essentially shut down.

I've wondered if the reaction to Prop 8 forced the church to emphasize the importance of civility in disagreements, and then looking around, they realized that they were giving platforms to people like Hannity, DCP, and Hamblin, who did not practice this virtue at all. Clearly the time lag is long here, but perhaps one embarrassing FARMS incident after another built up to where the church couldn't ignore it any longer.
I think this is a reasonable speculation when placed in context of the political climate of the time. While I think the whole Prop 8 issue *may* have provided some backdrop to what was going on, I think the more pressing political factor was likely Romney’s run for the presidency. I think that LDS leadership was anxious to avoid scandal, and the Mopologists at that time were picking a very public fight with John Dehlin.

To be clear: I personally don’t think that these political details were a *major* factor in the decision to cancel FARMS, but I do think they provide context/backdrop. That said, I do think a lot of people—including a number of General Authorities—were fed up with FARMS’s attack-minded way of doing apologetics.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Moksha
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Moksha »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 12:14 am
I think that LDS leadership was anxious to avoid scandal, and the Mopologists at that time were picking a very public fight with John Dehlin.
Dr. Peterson had the foresight of removing any mention of Blood Atonement from the Greg Smith hit piece. It may have been a day late and a dollar short, but things could have been worse. Imagine a Hulu mini-series called Under the Banner of FARMS.
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by jimjam »

Dr. Scratch wrote: I think this is a reasonable speculation when placed in context of the political climate of the time. While I think the whole Prop 8 issue *may* have provided some backdrop to what was going on, I think the more pressing political factor was likely Romney’s run for the presidency. I think that LDS leadership was anxious to avoid scandal, and the Mopologists at that time were picking a very public fight with John Dehlin.

To be clear: I personally don’t think that these political details were a *major* factor in the decision to cancel FARMS, but I do think they provide context/backdrop. That said, I do think a lot of people—including a number of General Authorities—were fed up with FARMS’s attack-minded way of doing apologetics.
I think this is a great analysis. I appreciate your thoughts. Somehow I had forgotten about Romney also running in 2012.
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Kishkumen »

Thanks for marking the day, Doctor Scratch. What a time that was. When you first contacted me with information about these communications, my jaw dropped. I was absolutely stunned. What was DCP's run at FARMS/Maxwell, two decades? I think he got pretty busy with apologetics almost as soon as he arrived at BYU. For such a long time he was the most significant figure in LDS apologetics.

Then the internet happened.

And the game was changed. No one could have anticipated what the internet would do to Mormonism, least of all the apologists themselves. I think it is fair to say that their customary approach to protecting the faith did not translate very well into the world of online communications. Now there were many more doubting members to work with, and they were being treated with the hostility usually reserved for anti-cult ministry goons or the few big names in liberal Mormonism.

It is remarkable to me that to this day I don't think the needs of doubting members has been met by the LDS church. Classic-FARMS apologetics was taken out of the center of the game, but nothing else replaced it. Mind you, I didn't expect that the same kind of thing would fill its place, but I thought there would be some other big initiative along different lines. Instead, it seems like the LDS Church is at a loss with regard to what to do to help those suffering with a crisis of faith. Sure, I know that people could point to this or that effort to help out these doubters, but what really registers as a robust effort in this regard? What kind of institutional vision is there to address these issues?
“Academia’s continual campaign to disregard or neglect the classics is a sign of spiritual decay, moral decline and a deep intellectual narrowness running amok in American culture.” ~ Cornel West
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Moksha »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:12 pm
Then the internet happened.

And the game was changed. No one could have anticipated what the internet would do to Mormonism, least of all the apologists themselves.
I thought somebody prophesied on the old FAIR board that this would happen.
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:12 pm
Thanks for marking the day, Doctor Scratch. What a time that was. When you first contacted me with information about these communications, my jaw dropped. I was absolutely stunned. What was DCP's run at FARMS/Maxwell, two decades? I think he got pretty busy with apologetics almost as soon as he arrived at BYU. For such a long time he was the most significant figure in LDS apologetics.

Then the internet happened.

And the game was changed. No one could have anticipated what the internet would do to Mormonism, least of all the apologists themselves. I think it is fair to say that their customary approach to protecting the faith did not translate very well into the world of online communications. Now there were many more doubting members to work with, and they were being treated with the hostility usually reserved for anti-cult ministry goons or the few big names in liberal Mormonism.

It is remarkable to me that to this day I don't think the needs of doubting members has been met by the LDS church. Classic-FARMS apologetics was taken out of the center of the game, but nothing else replaced it. Mind you, I didn't expect that the same kind of thing would fill its place, but I thought there would be some other big initiative along different lines. Instead, it seems like the LDS Church is at a loss with regard to what to do to help those suffering with a crisis of faith. Sure, I know that people could point to this or that effort to help out these doubters, but what really registers as a robust effort in this regard? What kind of institutional vision is there to address these issues?
Excellent points here, Reverend. I suppose the lone place I differ with you here is in the idea that FARMS was ever truly about helping people with wavering testimonies. Unless, that is, one thinks that trashing the likes of Grant Palmer or Loftes Tryk in print was going to help the poor sap who just learned about Joseph's extensive polygamy, say, or the Book of Abraham issues. "Interpreter" has carried on that particular tradition of FARMS in somewhat altered form, for better or worse, but I agree with you completely that the LDS Church really has very little to offer those whose faith has been shaken.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Kishkumen
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Kishkumen »

Excellent points here, Reverend. I suppose the lone place I differ with you here is in the idea that FARMS was ever truly about helping people with wavering testimonies. Unless, that is, one thinks that trashing the likes of Grant Palmer or Loftes Tryk in print was going to help the poor sap who just learned about Joseph's extensive polygamy, say, or the Book of Abraham issues. "Interpreter" has carried on that particular tradition of FARMS in somewhat altered form, for better or worse, but I agree with you completely that the LDS Church really has very little to offer those whose faith has been shaken.
I am pretty sure that attacking perceived enemies of the faith was believed by some to be helpful to members. It is surely no substitute for actually addressing the problems and directly helping struggling souls, but it was what they were used to and enjoyed doing.
“Academia’s continual campaign to disregard or neglect the classics is a sign of spiritual decay, moral decline and a deep intellectual narrowness running amok in American culture.” ~ Cornel West
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Kishkumen
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Kishkumen »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:52 pm
I thought somebody prophesied on the old FAIR board that this would happen.
In what year?
“Academia’s continual campaign to disregard or neglect the classics is a sign of spiritual decay, moral decline and a deep intellectual narrowness running amok in American culture.” ~ Cornel West
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Doctor Scratch
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Re: "You've achieved your goal. I resign." Celebrating the 10th Anniversary of the End of FARMS

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 3:54 am
Excellent points here, Reverend. I suppose the lone place I differ with you here is in the idea that FARMS was ever truly about helping people with wavering testimonies. Unless, that is, one thinks that trashing the likes of Grant Palmer or Loftes Tryk in print was going to help the poor sap who just learned about Joseph's extensive polygamy, say, or the Book of Abraham issues. "Interpreter" has carried on that particular tradition of FARMS in somewhat altered form, for better or worse, but I agree with you completely that the LDS Church really has very little to offer those whose faith has been shaken.
I am pretty sure that attacking perceived enemies of the faith was believed by some to be helpful to members. It is surely no substitute for actually addressing the problems and directly helping struggling souls, but it was what they were used to and enjoyed doing.
Well said. Hard to disagree with any of this.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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