The Mormon Cosmological argument

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Rivendale
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Rivendale »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:29 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:20 pm
huh? then a vague memory of a movie , google helps:
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

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drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:36 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:20 pm

I find the phrase "God is not someone" to be so ambiguous that I would not know whose understanding would accept or not accept such a phrase. What would be the boundaries for the category , a someone? Is it to refer only to homo sapiens? biological creatures with human similarity?
Just keep in mind that God (is claimed to have) created the Universe, including the idea of someone itself. Mormonism doesn't accept that, the Universe created their god.

In a venn diagram, put everything that ever has existed into one circle, and draw a larger circle around that to place God. We by definition cannot know anything about what is inside that larger circle, all we can know is what exists inside our smaller more limited circle.
drumdude, I can see the point of your diagram. It says something, I added to my wondering what a someone would be limited to. I thought it possible to consider a someone that which addresses and understands us as someone. That someone could be profoundly different than us.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:49 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 9:36 pm


Just keep in mind that God (is claimed to have) created the Universe, including the idea of someone itself. Mormonism doesn't accept that, the Universe created their god.

In a venn diagram, put everything that ever has existed into one circle, and draw a larger circle around that to place God. We by definition cannot know anything about what is inside that larger circle, all we can know is what exists inside our smaller more limited circle.
drumdude, I can see the point of your diagram. It says something, I added to my wondering what a someone would be limited to. I thought it possible to consider a someone that which addresses and understands us as someone. That someone could be profoundly different than us.
I certainly think that most Christians believe that God can act as someone in order to engage with us personally. It just that he’s not limited only to that.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Physics Guy »

It may be hard to imagine a being who exists outside of any kind of time, or in some form of time-ish something that is very different from time as we know it. It shouldn't be at all hard, though, to imagine a being who exists outside our time.

I exist outside the time in any book or movie. In a few moments I can read a two-line summary of things that took place over ten fictional years, or I can get a five-minute bullet-time scene for an event that took seconds. I can pause the film or put down the book, go think about all kinds of other things, and come back. No time will have passed in the fictional world. I can flip back or rewind, skip ahead or fast-forward.

If I'm watching a superhero film, I could even switch to one of several rebooted versions of the same film, to see the same story in a different timeline. And if I'm writing the story myself, it's all like that, only more so.

I still exist in time—the real world's time. But my time has nothing to do with the fictional world's time.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

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Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:54 pm
It may be hard to imagine a being who exists outside of any kind of time, or in some form of time-ish something that is very different from time as we know it. It shouldn't be at all hard, though, to imagine a being who exists outside our time.

I exist outside the time in any book or movie. In a few moments I can read a two-line summary of things that took place over ten fictional years, or I can get a five-minute bullet-time scene for an event that took seconds. I can pause the film or put down the book, go think about all kinds of other things, and come back. No time will have passed in the fictional world. I can flip back or rewind, skip ahead or fast-forward.

If I'm watching a superhero film, I could even switch to one of several rebooted versions of the same film, to see the same story in a different timeline. And if I'm writing the story myself, it's all like that, only more so.

I still exist in time—the real world's time. But my time has nothing to do with the fictional world's time.
That is nothing more than being under anesthesia. Or being misdirected so your brain chemistry can't reconfigure. Time was still clicking before you were born and while you were sleeping.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Physics Guy »

Rivendale wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:25 am
Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:54 pm
It may be hard to imagine a being who exists ... my time has nothing to do with the fictional world's time.
That is nothing more than being under anesthesia. Or being misdirected so your brain chemistry can't reconfigure. Time was still clicking before you were born and while you were sleeping.
How does that relate to my post that you quoted? Some books and movies are boring, but they usually don't actually anaesthetise me.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

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drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:21 pm
How can Harry Potter fly around on a broomstick?
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Rivendale »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:35 am
Rivendale wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 1:25 am


That is nothing more than being under anesthesia. Or being misdirected so your brain chemistry can't reconfigure. Time was still clicking before you were born and while you were sleeping.
How does that relate to my post that you quoted? Some books and movies are boring, but they usually don't actually anaesthetise me.
But it is not an equivalent comparison to being outside of time. If a god did this he would come back unaware of what happened .
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Morley »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 11:54 pm
It may be hard to imagine a being who exists outside of any kind of time, or in some form of time-ish something that is very different from time as we know it. It shouldn't be at all hard, though, to imagine a being who exists outside our time.

I exist outside the time in any book or movie. In a few moments I can read a two-line summary of things that took place over ten fictional years, or I can get a five-minute bullet-time scene for an event that took seconds. I can pause the film or put down the book, go think about all kinds of other things, and come back. No time will have passed in the fictional world. I can flip back or rewind, skip ahead or fast-forward.

If I'm watching a superhero film, I could even switch to one of several rebooted versions of the same film, to see the same story in a different timeline. And if I'm writing the story myself, it's all like that, only more so.

I still exist in time—the real world's time. But my time has nothing to do with the fictional world's time.


Physics Guy, you’re saying that since you exist in time outside of various fictional narratives, that something something God. I must be missing something.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Physics Guy »

Someone complained above that it was too hard to imagine a personal being existing outside of time. I pointed out that this shouldn't be hard at all. God's time could be to our time as our time is to fictional time.

I still don't get what Rivendale is saying about my post.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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