The Mormon Cosmological argument

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dastardly stem
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by dastardly stem »

I like it. It calls out the sleight of hand trick inherent in the Cosmological argument for God. Everything that gets created is created from stuff. The universe was created. Therefore it is created by stuff. The trick of the argument is it goes from saying everything was created, which entails being created from previous stuff to the universe was created from no stuff, therefore there is God.

What we have here is better than the original Cosmological argument and then defeats Craig's god--how could the universe be created out of nothing magically by an undefined something/nothing without stuff?

Craig can complain about this causing an infinite regress problem...but who cares? Then we have an infinite regress problem. "well, yeah but that can't possibly be". And? what's possible about something before the universe? We're simply imagining any thing or event before the Big Bang anyway.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
KevinSim
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by KevinSim »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:20 am
Technically I don’t think Mormons can really be said to believe in any God at all, in the standard sense of the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions.
Is there a God in the standard sense of the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions, Drumdude?
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

KevinSim wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:18 am
drumdude wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:20 am
Technically I don’t think Mormons can really be said to believe in any God at all, in the standard sense of the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions.
Is there a God in the standard sense of the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions, Drumdude?

I thought I made it clear that both Mormons and I are both atheists when it comes to Abrahamic monotheism. We don’t believe in a Creator God that is timeless, spaceless, and outside of the Universe. See the evangelical arguments against Mormonism which are wonderful at making this point.

Where Mormons and I differ is that I believe there is no celestial pyramid scheme elevating humans to the level of Superman.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by KevinSim »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:49 pm
I thought I made it clear that both Mormons and I are both atheists when it comes to Abrahamic monotheism.
Then what difference does it make, Drumdude, whether or not Latter-daySaints worship someone that could be considered an Abrahamic deity?
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 2:32 am
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:49 pm
I thought I made it clear that both Mormons and I are both atheists when it comes to Abrahamic monotheism.
Then what difference does it make, Drumdude, whether or not Latter-daySaints worship someone that could be considered an Abrahamic deity?
Because Latter-Day Saints like Daniel use arguments for the existence of God against atheism while not realizing they don't apply to Mormonism. The Cosmological one, the topic of this thread for example, has been used by DCP countless times but it does not apply to Mormonism's non-Deity deities.

Mormons like to have it both ways, privately believing in polytheism/atheism while outwardly trying to convince the rest of the world they are just regular old Christians. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:49 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:18 am

Is there a God in the standard sense of the Judeo-Christian or Islamic traditions, Drumdude?

I thought I made it clear that both Mormons and I are both atheists when it comes to Abrahamic monotheism. We don’t believe in a Creator God that is timeless, spaceless, and outside of the Universe. See the evangelical arguments against Mormonism which are wonderful at making this point.

Where Mormons and I differ is that I believe there is no celestial pyramid scheme elevating humans to the level of Superman.
drumdude, I have heard God described as omnipotent omnipresent and eternal. Timeless spaceless and outside of the universe sound like a Mormon parody. How could an omnipresent god be spaceless and outside of the universe?

What I would wonder about the Mormon deity is how a human acquires the leverage and power to organize a world or universe? What would that power be other than divine? I think some Mormons believe there is an eternal divine which from our perspective is embodied in particular exalted beings. In terms of doctrine I do not think this is spelled out but it has a logic. I think something like this would explain why Daniel Peterson would be happy to use traditional arguments for Gods existence. The power referred to by the arguments is clearly held to exist in Mormon thought. It is this idea of an intermediary embodiment in LDS thought which is not present in traditional Christian views.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:18 pm
drumdude, I have heard God described as omnipotent omnipresent and eternal. Timeless spaceless and outside of the universe sound like a Mormon parody. How could an omnipresent god be spaceless and outside of the universe?
The timeless spaceless God is what Christians believe in.

"The Christian concept of God is that He is the creator of the physical universe in which time and space exist. This means that He is not dependent upon either one for His own existence. He transcends them. He is independent of them." Source: Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry carm.org.

The Mormon concept of God is that he is one of an infinite regression of past Gods, he is not the creator of the Universe, and he is simply organizing pre-existing matter. This is the teaching of Joseph Smith and the current church.
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:18 pm
What I would wonder about the Mormon deity is how a human acquires the leverage and power to organize a world or universe? What would that power be other than divine?
That alone is insufficient to meet the definition that almost all Christians have for God. God to them is the creator of all things, he is not a creation inside the Universe just organizing matter. This is integral to all of the Christian arguments for the existence of God. You have to define what God is first.

The Mormon God cannot be the first cause. He cannot be the creator. He cannot be God in the sense that all Christian apologists are using when they make their arguments for the existence of God. What Mormons are really talking about is a kind of Übermensch, a version of Superman who has parents just like Superman did. Superman isn't God, even though he has very strong powers.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:34 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:18 pm
drumdude, I have heard God described as omnipotent omnipresent and eternal. Timeless spaceless and outside of the universe sound like a Mormon parody. How could an omnipresent god be spaceless and outside of the universe?
The timeless spaceless God is what Christians believe in.

"The Christian concept of God is that He is the creator of the physical universe in which time and space exist. This means that He is not dependent upon either one for His own existence. He transcends them. He is independent of them." Source: Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry carm.org.

The Mormon concept of God is that he is one of an infinite regression of past Gods, he is not the creator of the Universe, and he is simply organizing pre-existing matter. This is the teaching of Joseph Smith and the current church.
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:18 pm
What I would wonder about the Mormon deity is how a human acquires the leverage and power to organize a world or universe? What would that power be other than divine?
That alone is insufficient to meet the definition that almost all Christians have for God. God to them is the creator of all things, he is not a creation inside the Universe just organizing matter. This is integral to all of the Christian arguments for the existence of God. You have to define what God is first.

The Mormon God cannot be the first cause. He cannot be the creator. He cannot be God in the sense that all Christian apologists are using when they make their arguments for the existence of God. What Mormons are really talking about is a kind of Übermensch, a version of Superman who has parents just like Superman did. Superman isn't God, even though he has very strong powers.
drumdude, I am not sure why you skipped the point I was aiming at. I am quite familiar with the traditional Christian thinking about God. The carm comment is pretty accurate. Back growing up LDS we studied King Follett discourse. I am aware of the differences between LDS ideas and the entire rest of Christianity on that matter. The LDS view is that our God has acquired full divinity, he is not a superman but human.

I am pretty sure it would be that in LDS view God fundamentally has power over matter even if there is some eternal matter. How else could they speak of God organizing worlds or universes and performing miracles?
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Rivendale »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:22 pm
drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 6:34 pm


The timeless spaceless God is what Christians believe in.

"The Christian concept of God is that He is the creator of the physical universe in which time and space exist. This means that He is not dependent upon either one for His own existence. He transcends them. He is independent of them." Source: Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry carm.org.

The Mormon concept of God is that he is one of an infinite regression of past Gods, he is not the creator of the Universe, and he is simply organizing pre-existing matter. This is the teaching of Joseph Smith and the current church.



That alone is insufficient to meet the definition that almost all Christians have for God. God to them is the creator of all things, he is not a creation inside the Universe just organizing matter. This is integral to all of the Christian arguments for the existence of God. You have to define what God is first.

The Mormon God cannot be the first cause. He cannot be the creator. He cannot be God in the sense that all Christian apologists are using when they make their arguments for the existence of God. What Mormons are really talking about is a kind of Übermensch, a version of Superman who has parents just like Superman did. Superman isn't God, even though he has very strong powers.
drumdude, I am not sure why you skipped the point I was aiming at. I am quite familiar with the traditional Christian thinking about God. The carm comment is pretty accurate. Back growing up LDS we studied King Follett discourse. I am aware of the differences between LDS ideas and the entire rest of Christianity on that matter. The LDS view is that our God has acquired full divinity, he is not a superman but human.

I am pretty sure it would be that in LDS view God fundamentally has power over matter even if there is some eternal matter. How else could they speak of God organizing worlds or universes and performing miracles?
But in Mormon theology there was no first cause. It is exalted beings in an infinite regress.
drumdude
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:22 pm
The LDS view is that our God has acquired full divinity, he is not a superman but human.

I am pretty sure it would be that in LDS view God fundamentally has power over matter even if there is some eternal matter. How else could they speak of God organizing worlds or universes and performing miracles?
The best way I can think to describe the difference is that in Mormonism, gods act like gods and do some of the things God is said to do. In Christianity, God is. The great "I am."

I think back to the fireside recently that a Mormon gave where he said everyone except Mormons "pretend to play church." Well in Mormonism, exalted beings pretend to play God.

If God isn't eternal, timeless, spaceless, uncreated, ect... then he isn't God. He's something more like superman. Or a very intelligent alien.
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