The Mormon Cosmological argument

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doubtingthomas
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by doubtingthomas »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:05 pm

If God isn't eternal, timeless, spaceless, uncreated, ect... then he isn't God.
How can a god be timeless and spaceless?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:32 pm

But in Mormon theology there was no first cause. It is exalted beings in an infinite regress.
Rivendale, what I am wondering about is what is the power or principal of exalting. How does this exalting have power? I am not sure how extending back in time changes the basic question. Infinite regress still leaves the same question as far as I can see.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:13 pm
drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:05 pm

If God isn't eternal, timeless, spaceless, uncreated, ect... then he isn't God.
How can a god be timeless and spaceless?
I had the same thought so I suggested the traditional words, eternal omnipotent and omnipresent. Those words mean having being and do not create tangles making it appear God cannot relate to or touch the world.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:13 pm
drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:05 pm

If God isn't eternal, timeless, spaceless, uncreated, ect... then he isn't God.
How can a god be timeless and spaceless?
How can Harry Potter fly around on a broomstick? You don't have to believe in witches and elves to realize Gandalf is different from Harry Potter.

We're not talking about a God that actually exists, we're talking about the Christian belief.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:05 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:22 pm
The LDS view is that our God has acquired full divinity, he is not a superman but human.

I am pretty sure it would be that in LDS view God fundamentally has power over matter even if there is some eternal matter. How else could they speak of God organizing worlds or universes and performing miracles?
The best way I can think to describe the difference is that in Mormonism, gods act like gods and do some of the things God is said to do. In Christianity, God is. The great "I am."

I think back to the fireside recently that a Mormon gave where he said everyone except Mormons "pretend to play church." Well in Mormonism, exalted beings pretend to play God.

If God isn't eternal, timeless, spaceless, uncreated, ect... then he isn't God. He's something more like superman. Or a very intelligent alien.
drumdude,my proposal was that Mormon theology was self contradictory and absurd(the superman idea). But there is a finesse, it is not official doctrine and it is certainly not traditional Christian understanding. The finesse is that there is an eternal divine power (light or principal) which an exalted individual becomes one with, receives divinity.
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Rivendale
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Rivendale »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:15 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 9:32 pm

But in Mormon theology there was no first cause. It is exalted beings in an infinite regress.
Rivendale, what I am wondering about is what is the power or principal of exalting. How does this exalting have power? I am not sure how extending back in time changes the basic question. Infinite regress still leaves the same question as far as I can see.
Mormon transcendentalists would say that an exalted being is nothing more than someone who gains enough skill and knowledge to do what their predecessors have done. They are not Gods. Just gods. Abrahamic religions scoff at this. God is not material. He is everywhere and capable of everything logically possible. And there is only one. The unmoved mover. In Mormonism there is no God. In christianity this poses an interesting question. If you are saved through grace and "earn" eternal life, what is the actual mechanism that is bestowed on you. Is there some kind of threshold of grace? Is it merely a mood of god? After all he is a jealous one. Maybe it is a scientific process somewhat like throwing a switch and your body becomes impervious to decay and other death processes. If the transcendentalists are correct, I wonder what they will do when they discover a rule that somehow supersedes all other supposed exaltation processes thereby cancelling the process. A defrocking of the gods that creates an infinite spanking line.
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drumdude
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:34 pm
The finesse is that there is an eternal divine power (light or principal) which an exalted individual becomes one with, receives divinity.
This is where it gets really fuzzy, in my opinion. I've not heard that idea really spelled out anywhere in Mormon doctrine. Pre-existing intelligences are one of the few references to anything actually close to eternal. Interesting to note that those are plural, not singular, so couldn't be a good fit for the traditional God either.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:36 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:15 pm

Rivendale, what I am wondering about is what is the power or principal of exalting. How does this exalting have power? I am not sure how extending back in time changes the basic question. Infinite regress still leaves the same question as far as I can see.
Mormon transcendentalists would say that an exalted being is nothing more than someone who gains enough skill and knowledge to do what their predecessors have done. They are not Gods. Just gods. Abrahamic religions scoff at this. God is not material. He is everywhere and capable of everything logically possible. And there is only one. The unmoved mover. In Mormonism there is no God. In christianity this poses an interesting question. If you are saved through grace and "earn" eternal life, what is the actual mechanism that is bestowed on you. Is there some kind of threshold of grace? Is it merely a mood of god? After all he is a jealous one. Maybe it is a scientific process somewhat like throwing a switch and your body becomes impervious to decay and other death processes. If the transcendentalists are correct, I wonder what they will do when they discover a rule that somehow supersedes all other supposed exaltation processes thereby cancelling the process. A defrocking of the gods that creates an infinite spanking line. Unknown.jpeg
Rivendale, I think (maybe I understand your point) that you are suggesting that if divine power is a result of learrning principals then one could ask what prevents unlimited access to this? Would not the devil be able to divine or understand the secret levers of power?

I think LDS speak implies there are moral principals that are part of the access to the exalting powers. I think that idea clearly implies an eternal divine structure to the source of power. One does not learn the physics of the power of divinization, one can only receive the power by becoming a part of that divine power.
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:38 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:34 pm
The finesse is that there is an eternal divine power (light or principal) which an exalted individual becomes one with, receives divinity.
This is where it gets really fuzzy, in my opinion. I've not heard that idea really spelled out anywhere in Mormon doctrine. Pre-existing intelligences are one of the few references to anything actually close to eternal. Interesting to note that those are plural, not singular, so couldn't be a good fit for the traditional God either.
I think you are correct here. I find myself looking at some points of overlap but that certainly does not mean that the LDS ideas are an actual fit to traditional Christian understanding.
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Rivendale
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Re: The Mormon Cosmological argument

Post by Rivendale »

huckelberry wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 11:08 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Fri Jun 24, 2022 10:36 pm



Rivendale, I think (maybe I understand your point) that you are suggesting that if divine power is a result of learrning principals then one could ask what prevents unlimited access to this? Would not the devil be able to divine or understand the secret levers of power?

I think LDS speak implies there are moral principals that are part of the access to the exalting powers. I think that idea clearly implies an eternal divine structure to the source of power. One does not learn the physics of the power of divinization, one can only receive the power by becoming a part of that divine power.

Spencer W Kimball likes to to emphasize becoming a "superman" in his book Miracle of Forgiveness. Which indicates at that time Mormon prophets thought grueling obedience was the only way to procure the skills of godhood. And Mormonism is still about obedience and living a code of life that imitates a god. Essentially the phrase "endure to the end" is still a priority for godhood.
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