Officially no official position on natural selection

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malkie
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by malkie »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:12 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:41 pm

Drumdude, how is evolution incompatible with LDS doctrine?
Because from an evolutionary perspective there is no such thing as a constant human, there is a continuous extremely gradual evolution from a lower non-human species into the existing human one that occurred over hundreds of thousands and millions of years. This is completely against the Garden of Eden narrative in the temple which lays out the young earth creationist theory that humans were placed on earth in their present day form.

I suppose you could say that humans before 6,000 years ago were soul-less zombies without spirits. They had all the intellectual skills, social skills, emotions, they lived lives, loved each other, buried their dead, but because of LDS theology they weren't allowed to have eternal life. Good luck explaining that to a new member or potential convert.
Last time I attended the temple (decades ago) it still said, in the "garden" narration, that "this is simply figurative as far as the man and woman are concerned."
(pre-1990 endowment) wrote:The meaning of this last sentence is not at all clear, since Latter-day Saints have held since the 1840s that human beings are literally created in God's image. Perhaps the statement was meant to indicate that the story about Eve being created from Adam's rib is figurative. In any case, this statement was removed in the 1990 revision.
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drumdude
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by drumdude »

As with all Mormon doctrine, it’s a house built on a foundation of sand with church leaders constantly shoveling.
KevinSim
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by KevinSim »

drumdude wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:12 pm
This is completely against the Garden of Eden narrative in the temple which lays out the young earth creationist theory that humans were placed on earth in their present day form.
I'm not convinced that there's anything in the temple ceremony that establishes a young Earth.
drumdude wrote:I suppose you could say that humans before 6,000 years ago were soul-less zombies without spirits.
They had spirits but they didn't understand the difference between good and evil. And I'm not convinced Adam and Eve lived just 6000 years ago either; it could have been much longer ago than that.
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

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Moksha wrote:
Sat Jun 25, 2022 8:16 pm
What about all the denials of evolution and the claim of a 7000-year-old earth?
All the denials of evolution and the claims of a 7000-year-old Earth are not official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I know what you're talking about. My parents, teachers, and peers raised me to believe that Darwin's theory was completely wrong, so when, as an undergraduate at the University of Washington I went to a Young Adult fireside on the topic of evolution, I expected to hear all that was wrong with Darwin's theory. Instead the speaker, the second counselor in the Seattle North Stake presidency, said the LDS Church didn't have an official position on that theory; and he went on to state that no serious scientist doubts that that theory is true; he himself clearly did not doubt it himself. That fireside was a critical point in my own personal evolution as a Latter-day Saint.
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by KevinSim »

Rivendale wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:08 pm
Evolution was added to McConkie's 7 deadly heresies.
Well, yes, Bruce McConkie was the son-in-law of the very Joseph Fielding Smith who went before Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints president Heber Grant to make the case for why the Church should condemn Darwin's theory as false (while B.H. Roberts, one of the Seven Presidents of the Seventy, made the case for why the Church should embrace as true that very theory), so it's not surprising that McConkie would share some of the same theological views as Smith. That does not change the fact that Grant's final decision was that the Church had better things to do than decide whether or not Darwin's theory was valid. And as Church president Joseph Fielding Smith didn't reverse that decision.
Rivendale wrote:Mormonism also has to have the global flood, (which is incompatible with evolution) . It has to have no death before the fall. (incompatible with evolution).....But they still teach it at BYU.
Not all devout Latter-day Saints believe there really was a global flood. I personally don't. Nor do I believe there was no death before the fall.
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

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Moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:20 am
Okay, I will accept that challenge: They lacked the handshakes and the ability to perform nude clogging in the Temple, necessary for eternal progression. Hope that helps.
Nude clogging? Moksha, what's that all about?
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by KevinSim »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:50 pm
As with all Mormon doctrine, it’s a house built on a foundation of sand with church leaders constantly shoveling.
Why do you think it's a house built on a foundation of sand, Drumdude?
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Rivendale
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

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KevinSim wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:38 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:08 pm
Evolution was added to McConkie's 7 deadly heresies.
Well, yes, Bruce McConkie was the son-in-law of the very Joseph Fielding Smith who went before Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints president Heber Grant to make the case for why the Church should condemn Darwin's theory as false (while B.H. Roberts, one of the Seven Presidents of the Seventy, made the case for why the Church should embrace as true that very theory), so it's not surprising that McConkie would share some of the same theological views as Smith. That does not change the fact that Grant's final decision was that the Church had better things to do than decide whether or not Darwin's theory was valid. And as Church president Joseph Fielding Smith didn't reverse that decision.
Rivendale wrote:Mormonism also has to have the global flood, (which is incompatible with evolution) . It has to have no death before the fall. (incompatible with evolution).....But they still teach it at BYU.
Not all devout Latter-day Saints believe there really was a global flood. I personally don't. Nor do I believe there was no death before the fall.
Denying the global flood is incompatible with Mormonism.
The Book of Mormon requires a global flood if it is to be an ancient, historical text. In fact, the Book of Mormon declares that there was a global flood. In Ether 6, the flood is addressed from the Jaredite plates, which would have been created shortly after the flood around the time of the Tower of Babel:

Ether 6:7 And it came to pass that when they were buried in the deep there was no water that could hurt them, their vessels being tight like unto a dish, and also they were tight like unto the ark of Noah; therefore when they were encompassed about by many waters they did cry unto the Lord, and he did bring them forth again upon the top of the waters.
13:2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

13:3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
13:2 For behold, they rejected all the words of Ether; for he truly told them of all things, from the beginning of man; and that after the waters had receded from off the face of this land it became a choice land above all other lands, a chosen land of the Lord; wherefore the Lord would have that all men should serve him who dwell upon the face thereof;

13:3 And that it was the place of the New Jerusalem, which should come down out of heaven, and the holy sanctuary of the Lord.
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

Post by drumdude »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 pm
drumdude wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:50 pm
As with all Mormon doctrine, it’s a house built on a foundation of sand with church leaders constantly shoveling.
Why do you think it's a house built on a foundation of sand, Drumdude?
Temple changes. Doctrinal changes. Policies that are implemented in 2015 and reversed in 2018.

The book Mormon Doctrine is already completely hidden because everything in it has changed and been swept under the rug. It's called Mormon Doctrine, for Heavens sake. Hundreds of pages of sand foundation. From a prophet, seer, and revelator no less.
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Re: Officially no official position on natural selection

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KevinSim wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:42 pm
Moksha wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:20 am
Okay, I will accept that challenge: They lacked the handshakes and the ability to perform nude clogging in the Temple, necessary for eternal progression. Hope that helps.
Nude clogging? Moksha, what's that all about?
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