Yep!drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:45 pmBecause of this line:
“The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically.“
The church cannot even let members who are raped or in danger of death get an abortion without going through the bureaucracy. According to them the ultimate arbiter of life and death is a bishop or stake president who was called up from the lay congregation with zero training in medicine, psychology, or leadership.
God help any Mormon woman ignorant or brainwashed enough to put her life in their hands.
President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
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Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Are we reading the same document? The one that says this:drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:45 pmBecause of this line:
“The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically.“
The church cannot even let members who are raped or in danger of death get an abortion without going through the bureaucracy. According to them the ultimate arbiter of life and death is a bishop or stake president who was called up from the lay congregation with zero training in medicine, psychology, or leadership.
God help any Mormon woman ignorant or brainwashed enough to put her life in their hands.
Nothing in the statement requires the woman to involve the bishop or stake president at all, let alone makes them the "ultimate arbiter of life and death."Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion. Abortion is a most serious matter. It should be considered only after the persons responsible have received confirmation through prayer. Members may counsel with their bishops as part of this process.
There is nothing about the sentence you quoted that implies that "life" means only "unborn life."
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:03 pmAre we reading the same document? The one that says this:drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:45 pm
Because of this line:
“The Church teaches its members that even these rare exceptions do not justify abortion automatically.“
The church cannot even let members who are raped or in danger of death get an abortion without going through the bureaucracy. According to them the ultimate arbiter of life and death is a bishop or stake president who was called up from the lay congregation with zero training in medicine, psychology, or leadership.
God help any Mormon woman ignorant or brainwashed enough to put her life in their hands.
Nothing in the statement requires the woman to involve the bishop or stake president at all, let alone makes them the "ultimate arbiter of life and death."Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion. Abortion is a most serious matter. It should be considered only after the persons responsible have received confirmation through prayer. Members may counsel with their bishops as part of this process.
There is nothing about the sentence you quoted that implies that "life" means only "unborn life."
I guess we’re not. I would suggest trying to imagine what it’s like to have just been raped, found out you’re pregnant, and then read that your church has some homework for you to do before you decide if you should have your rapists child or not. Homework that may be easier by reaching out to your church leaders.
The document was not written with the raped women in mind. It was written to take a clear political stance against abortion.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
I’d like to know, specifically, what the church considers to be appropriate efforts to preserve life.drumdude wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 9:34 amJune 2022
I love the Orwellian twist at the end that defines taking away a right from a non-Mormon as an act of preserving Mormons’ religious liberty.The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in the sanctity of human life. Therefore, the Church opposes elective abortion for personal or social convenience, and counsels its members not to submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for such abortions.
The Church allows for possible exceptions for its members when:
Pregnancy results from rape or incest, or
A competent physician determines that the life or health of the mother is in serious jeopardy, or
A competent physician determines that the fetus has severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth.
Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion. Abortion is a most serious matter. It should be considered only after the persons responsible have received confirmation through prayer. Members may counsel with their bishops as part of this process.
The Church’s position on this matter remains unchanged. As states work to enact laws related to abortion, Church members may appropriately choose to participate in efforts to protect life and to preserve religious liberty.
Church members can also choose to leave the woman who’s body is involved, to make her own decision without external influence from unrelated others. If a Church member is opposed to abortion, fine, don’t have one.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Now you’ve just moved the goalposts. First, I wouldn’t presume to claim I could imagine what it’s like for a woman to be raped. Beyond that, what young women were taught about rape when I was LDS was so screwed up that I have no reference point at all.drumdude wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:13 pmRes Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:03 pm
Are we reading the same document? The one that says this:
Nothing in the statement requires the woman to involve the bishop or stake president at all, let alone makes them the "ultimate arbiter of life and death."
There is nothing about the sentence you quoted that implies that "life" means only "unborn life."
I guess we’re not. I would suggest trying to imagine what it’s like to have just been raped, found out you’re pregnant, and then read that your church has some homework for you to do before you decide if you should have your rapists child or not. Homework that may be easier by reaching out to your church leaders.
The document was not written with the raped women in mind. It was written to take a clear political stance against abortion.
But the comment of mine that you responded to wasn’t about rape: it was about who has ultimate life or death control over the woman. I take it that your change of subject is an acknowledgement that your claim that the statement gives bishops and stake presidents that control was simply hyperbole on your part. Given the role of prayer in the life of faithful LDS folks, recommending prayer for guidance in advance of significant decisions is kind of a no brainier.
Open season on reproductive rights would be defining abortion as murder, leading to mandatory excommunication. The LDS Church has always had a more nuanced stance toward abortion than the Catholic Church as well as other Protestant sects. It is certainly more nuanced than those sects that have promoted the notion that abortion is a sin, period.
There is nothing in the last part of the statement that restricts advocacy for the lives of women. I’d bet money that was intentional.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
just to clarify, you're quoting the June 2022 adjustment.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:03 pmAre we reading the same document? The one that says this:
Nothing in the statement requires the woman to involve the bishop or stake president at all, let alone makes them the "ultimate arbiter of life and death."Even these exceptions do not automatically justify abortion. Abortion is a most serious matter. It should be considered only after the persons responsible have received confirmation through prayer. Members may counsel with their bishops as part of this process.
as i noted earlier, the previous rendition did require involvement of local leaders, and that's the version that held for the majority of my life, and that is typically quoted, at least in any conversation i've had with a tbm:
i am glad for the change, however.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Yes, I was, as the OP claims the change was a declaration of open season on reproductive rights. The change you refer to gives women more autonomy, which I see as an improvement over the former policy.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:38 amjust to clarify, you're quoting the June 2022 adjustment.
as i noted earlier, the previous rendition did require involvement of local leaders, and that's the version that held for the majority of my life, and that is typically quoted, at least in any conversation i've had with a tbm:i am glad for the change, however.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
i agree with the theoretical effect of the change as an improvement, although it may take a while for that to filter down. the TBM part of my family still gives the standard "follow the priesthood" for every decision making process, so it may take some time.Res Ipsa wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:48 amYes, I was, as the OP claims the change was a declaration of open season on reproductive rights. The change you refer to gives women more autonomy, which I see as an improvement over the former policy.Marcus wrote: ↑Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:38 am
just to clarify, you're quoting the June 2022 adjustment.
as i noted earlier, the previous rendition did require involvement of local leaders, and that's the version that held for the majority of my life, and that is typically quoted, at least in any conversation i've had with a tbm:
i am glad for the change, however.
Re: President Newsroom declares open season on reproductive rights
Yep. Baby steps.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.
Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.