Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

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honorentheos
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by honorentheos »

In reading this I am reminded that life - biological life - has proven amazingly resilient even as various forms of life have found themselves no longer well suited to their ever changing environment and failed to survive.

There is multiple levels of hubris in imagining human life in it's present form is special. I get WHY a person may think that way. But it is hubris nonetheless.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Res Ipsa »

KevinSim wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 9:50 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:40 am
What it sounds like your argument boils down to is a claim that I have a moral duty to do something impossible.
I even have a vague memory of saying something to that effect, fairly explicitly. I'm going to backpedal and concede right now that nobody has a moral duty or obligation to do something impossible.
Res Ipsa wrote:That’s why I say that, whatever that moral duty to future generations is, I can best fulfill it by based on the needs of the next generation.
Res Ipsa, I think that it's great that you have decided to work towards the benefit of the next generation, and I agree that such work will very likely help future generations. But can we agree that it won't guarantee that humanity will never die out?
Res Ipsa wrote:It’s just an assertion, and it’s a doozy because it asserts that we have a moral duty to make the human race last forever — something that so far as we know is literally impossible.
You said, "so far as we know." I would say that we don't know. Not really.
Res Ipsa wrote:The human race living forever violates the second law of thermodynamics.
And Mercury orbiting the Sun the way it does violates Newton's laws of gravitation. Einstein found a way around that. I don't put it past human engineering skills to find a way around the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
I agree that there is no guarantee that the human race will live forever.

I would disagree that Einstein found a way around anything.

Human knowledge is always qualified by “as far as we know.” I take the position that it makes the most sense to stick with what we know until given reason to do otherwise, Lots of humans have spent considerable time, money and effort on finding a loophole in the second law. To date, it still stands. To just say “we don’t know” is to turn our back on mountains of accumulated evidence For no reason whatsoever. The alternative — making up whatever we want to be true — makes no sense at all.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

malkie wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm
I wonder if KS is going according to his own logical steps:
  1. Something is very desirable (preservation of good things)
  2. There must be a way to achieve that, since it is so good
  3. Humans on there own may not be able to achieve 1.
  4. An entity that could achieve 1. would, by his definition, be God
  5. He chooses to believe in a specific God - the God of Mormonism
  6. An atheist, by denying the existence of God, thereby takes on the burden of achieving 1.
  7. Since atheists are human, and (by 3.) cannot achieve 1., they must produce the agent who can - God
I may be missing a step or two in between, but this is how I have rationalized what he seems to be going for. I'm not saying that I accept this as logical, as there are too many missing pieces, only that I can see a certain cohesion in it.

Of course, KS may completely disagree, which is his right.
I only disagree with a couple of things, Malkie. You've come very close to my argument. For (1) you said, "Something is very desirable." Very desirable isn't even close. That something is essential. It takes the human race from having no permanent effect on the universe to making a difference for good for everyone, permanently. I'm not saying that without the forever preservation humans live meaningless lives, but I am saying that with preservation, forever, of some good things, humans live much more meaningful lives. Is there a goal more worth fighting for? For (5) you said, "He chooses to believe in a specific God - the God of Mormonism." Wow, Malkie, that looks completely out of place. I do in fact believe in God as described by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but you make it sound like I just made that choice at random. The specific God I chose to believe is the God I can ask an initial question and count on Her/Him answering it. I asked God that question and got an answer, and that's why I believe in the God of the LDS Church.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Fence Sitter wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:57 pm
He will avoid responding directly to the posts and just ask questions.
Fence Sitter, please point me to a single instance of me avoiding responding directly to a post.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Marcus »

KevinSim wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:07 am
Fence Sitter wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:57 pm
He will avoid responding directly to the posts and just ask questions.
Fence Sitter, please point me to a single instance of me avoiding responding directly to a post.
Fence Sitter wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:57 pm
...I fully expect him to respond to this post by asking me why I think he will avoid direct responses....
oh! so very, very close! the response was WHEN did he avoid, not WHY does he avoid!!!!!
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malkie
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by malkie »

KevinSim wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:00 am
malkie wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:49 pm
I wonder if KS is going according to his own logical steps:
  1. Something is very desirable (preservation of good things)
  2. There must be a way to achieve that, since it is so good
  3. Humans on there own may not be able to achieve 1.
  4. An entity that could achieve 1. would, by his definition, be God
  5. He chooses to believe in a specific God - the God of Mormonism
  6. An atheist, by denying the existence of God, thereby takes on the burden of achieving 1.
  7. Since atheists are human, and (by 3.) cannot achieve 1., they must produce the agent who can - God
I may be missing a step or two in between, but this is how I have rationalized what he seems to be going for. I'm not saying that I accept this as logical, as there are too many missing pieces, only that I can see a certain cohesion in it.

Of course, KS may completely disagree, which is his right.
I only disagree with a couple of things, Malkie. You've come very close to my argument. For (1) you said, "Something is very desirable." Very desirable isn't even close. That something is essential. It takes the human race from having no permanent effect on the universe to making a difference for good for everyone, permanently. I'm not saying that without the forever preservation humans live meaningless lives, but I am saying that with preservation, forever, of some good things, humans live much more meaningful lives. Is there a goal more worth fighting for? For (5) you said, "He chooses to believe in a specific God - the God of Mormonism." Wow, Malkie, that looks completely out of place. I do in fact believe in God as described by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but you make it sound like I just made that choice at random. The specific God I chose to believe is the God I can ask an initial question and count on Her/Him answering it. I asked God that question and got an answer, and that's why I believe in the God of the LDS Church.
Your belief/feeling that something is essential does not make it so - there is no requirement in any way for the human race to make a difference for good for everyone, permanently.

As far as your choice of God is concerned, I was implying nothing about your reasons, only stating that you said that this was a choice you made.

I disagree with your comment about the placement of that point - to me, it seems to fit logically between your requirement for a God with specific powers and your insistence that, by denying the existence of God (and therefore his ability to do what you want him to do), atheists put themselves on the hook for effecting the 'good thing'. However, I won't argue too much if you would like to put it somewhere else in the sequence. Where do you think it fits better?
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honorentheos
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by honorentheos »

KevinSim wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:00 am
Very desirable isn't even close. That something is essential. It takes the human race from having no permanent effect on the universe to making a difference for good for everyone, permanently.
Hi KevinSim,

Calling something "good" requires making a value judgement. That in turn means a subjective set of values are being applied to make that judgement.

To demonstrate, what is something that you would call "good" that does not presuppose a human prerogative?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 pm
Are there callings for Mormon retirees to serve Internet missions?
Doc, actually no there are not. I make these posts because I enjoy reasoning with people who are not Latter-day Saints.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Clearly KS is proselytizing since he has no coherent philosophy, so he’s dependent on canon to define what a god is and why it do what it do.
Why do you think I have no coherent philosophy?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

IHAQ wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:10 am
Are you a racist Kevin? Because your God is - you said the Book of Mormon gives a great description of God’s nature.
Is Racism one of those good things you’d like to see preserved forever by your God?
IHAQ, I am not a racist. Nor do I believe that my God is a racist. The Book of Mormon can indeed give a great description of God's nature without every word it says being true.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:51 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:03 pm
Are there callings for Mormon retirees to serve Internet missions?
Doc, actually no there are not. I make these posts because I enjoy reasoning with people who are not Latter-day Saints.
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:Clearly KS is proselytizing since he has no coherent philosophy, so he’s dependent on canon to define what a god is and why it do what it do.
Why do you think I have no coherent philosophy?
Why do you think it’s perceived you have no coherent philosophy?

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