Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

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KevinSim
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:28 am
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:58 pm
Marcus, how do you know I feigned ignorance, and wasn't instead just outright ignorant?
:D You are absolutely correct. I do not know with any certainty that you are not "just outright ignorant."
Thank you! There indeed was no feigning involved.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Marcus »

In all of this looping, there is still a question outstanding that it would be interesting to have addressed.
it started here:
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 8:54 pm
IHAQ wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2022 7:24 am
I’m pretty sure there are plenty of optimistic atheists.
I'm not sure there are any conscientious ones who have thoroughly thought things through.
Marcus wrote:
Fri Jul 15, 2022 10:41 pm
...you made an unnecessarily overarching and insupportable statement about the behavior of a large group of diverse people, on the basis of a single attribute they have in common, which is not necessarily related to the attribute you assumed for all...
And the response:
KevinSim wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:01 am
Marcus, how do you know it's insupportable?

...The simple fact is that humanity needs God. If, as atheists assert, there is no deity in control of this universe, then it becomes those atheists' conscientious obligation to produce one. If atheists have thought things through and are yet not pessimists, then that means they must have found a way to produce such a deity, which would surprise me very much. So if you can explain to me how they have discovered how to produce God, I will admit that I am wrong and that my statement is insupportable.
Your statement that you will admit your statement is insupportable if i can explain "how [atheists] have discovered how to produce God" is nonsensical on its face.

so my question remains, what is your support for making the statement about an entire group that you think there are not "...any conscientious [atheists] who have thoroughly thought things through"?


(i have truncated some quotes, as indicated by the ellipses, to focus on one question. the arrows still link to the full post.)
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Marcus wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:56 am
it's not a matter of being contradictory or difficult to understand, it's simply that you haven't provided any reasoning for your assumptions.

for example...

assumption 1: "Humanity needs someone who can preserve some good things forever"

why?
Because without that someone humanity is going to go extinct. Someone who is going to die unless s/he gets dialysis can be said to need dialysis. I say that the whole human race is going to die out unless someone figures out how to preserve some good things forever. So humanity needs that someone.
Marcus wrote:assumption 2/tautology: "without God humanity will go extinct."
only because you define god as "someone who can preserve some good things forever,"
That's right; that's how I define God.
Marcus wrote:assumption 3: "So if God does not exist, people are conscientiously obligated to produce Her/Him."

Why? Why are people obligated to produce something, simply because that something does not exist?
Marcus, I never said people are obligated to produce something, simply because it doesn't exist. They're obligated because they need it to exist, as I pointed out above. If it already exists, there's no need to produce it; one is enough. But if one doesn't exist, humanity still needs it to exist, so in that case we're obligated to produce it.
Marcus wrote:Also, what exactly do you mean by "producing God"? How is that accomplished, in your mind?
Marcus, I have no idea how it's accomplished. I'm not even sure it's possible. But it has to be done. We owe it to humanity to produce God, unless we have reason to believe God already exists.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Rivendale »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:55 pm
Marcus wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 6:56 am
it's not a matter of being contradictory or difficult to understand, it's simply that you haven't provided any reasoning for your assumptions.

for example...

assumption 1: "Humanity needs someone who can preserve some good things forever"

why?
Because without that someone humanity is going to go extinct. Someone who is going to die unless s/he gets dialysis can be said to need dialysis. I say that the whole human race is going to die out unless someone figures out how to preserve some good things forever. So humanity needs that someone.
Marcus wrote:assumption 2/tautology: "without God humanity will go extinct."
only because you define god as "someone who can preserve some good things forever,"
That's right; that's how I define God.
Marcus wrote:assumption 3: "So if God does not exist, people are conscientiously obligated to produce Her/Him."

Why? Why are people obligated to produce something, simply because that something does not exist?
Marcus, I never said people are obligated to produce something, simply because it doesn't exist. They're obligated because they need it to exist, as I pointed out above. If it already exists, there's no need to produce it; one is enough. But if one doesn't exist, humanity still needs it to exist, so in that case we're obligated to produce it.
Marcus wrote:Also, what exactly do you mean by "producing God"? How is that accomplished, in your mind?
Marcus, I have no idea how it's accomplished. I'm not even sure it's possible. But it has to be done. We owe it to humanity to produce God, unless we have reason to believe God already exists.
99% of every thing that has ever lived on Earth has become extinct. Someone is doing a real poor job of preserving good things.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Marcus »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:55 pm
Marcus wrote:assumption 3: "So if God does not exist, people are conscientiously obligated to produce Her/Him."

Why? Why are people obligated to produce something, simply because that something does not exist?
Marcus, I never said people are obligated to produce something, simply because it doesn't exist. They're obligated because they need it to exist, as I pointed out above. If it already exists, there's no need to produce it; one is enough. But if one doesn't exist, humanity still needs it to exist, so in that case we're obligated to produce it.
okay, you are saying "people are obligated to produce something, ...because they need it to exist," and the "need" is an assumption you are making when you say "the whole human race is going to die out unless someone figures out how to preserve some good things forever. So humanity needs that someone."

I will restate this part of my questions, in light of your clarifications:

Why are people obligated to produce something that does not exist, simply because some people assume they need it to exist?

i find this question interesting, because you have stated that not just religious believers have this obligation, but also atheists.
KevinSim wrote:
Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:01 am
...The simple fact is that humanity needs God. If, as atheists assert, there is no deity in control of this universe, then it becomes those atheists' conscientious obligation to produce one...
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:55 pm
… no idea how it's accomplished. I'm not even sure it's possible. But it has to be done. We owe it to humanity to produce God, unless we have reason to believe God already exists.
‘We owe it to humanity to produce a god unless we already produced one we believe exists. Because that god would preserve some good things.’

-_-

My, man.

Image

We’ve reached levels of nonsense no one thought possible.

Image

After meditating upon the political implications of people who believe this and vote I’m left with a thought:

Image

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Marcus »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:55 pm
Marcus wrote:Also, what exactly do you mean by "producing God"? How is that accomplished, in your mind?
Marcus, I have no idea how it's accomplished. I'm not even sure it's possible. But it has to be done. We owe it to humanity to produce God, unless we have reason to believe God already exists.
This has been asked of you many times. Why does it "[have] to be done"? Your statements about owing it to humanity because no generation should be the "final" generation (according to your definition of how that would occur) are unpersuasive.

You have added a new part to the idea:
"...unless we have reason to believe God already exists."

If by this you mean those who already believe, then your beliefs are recognized as such. You have a belief, and i can respect that as something based on your feelings.

But, you have stated that atheists have an obligation here also, so it seems you are going past that expression of your feelings and what they require from you. Are you still a ward missionary? Is this an exercise in proselytizing for you?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by IHAQ »

IHAQ wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:10 am
_KevinSim wrote:
Sat Feb 28, 2015 4:06 pm
I don't detach my "god from the Book of Mormon and the Book of Abraham"; I've read both books several times, and fully believe both books give great descriptions of the nature of God.

Laugh at those two books all you want; I see no reason why such laughter should keep me from believing they're divinely inspired.
Kevin, here’s what the Book of Mormon says:
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
22 And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
23 And cursed shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed; for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it, and it was done.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... tures/Book of Mormon/2-ne/5?lang=eng

Are you a racist Kevin? Because your God is - you said the Book of Mormon gives a great description of God’s nature.
Is Racism one of those good things you’d like to see preserved forever by your God?
Hi Kevin, this will be my third time of asking these simple, but highly relevant questions, what is your response?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by IHAQ »

IHAQ wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 10:57 am
KevinSim wrote:
Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:39 am

IHAQ, I don't believe I've ever said my goal was the preservation, forever, of earthly humanity. Just the preservation, forever, of humanity.
Well now you need to explain what you mean by “humanity” and which bits of earthly humanity aren’t included.
I'm not sure that's a hard fact.
Can you think of a good thing that doesn’t also come with a consequence?
Hi Kevin, this will be my third time of asking this simple, but highly relevant question, what is your response?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 1:40 am
What it sounds like your argument boils down to is a claim that I have a moral duty to do something impossible.
I even have a vague memory of saying something to that effect, fairly explicitly. I'm going to backpedal and concede right now that nobody has a moral duty or obligation to do something impossible.
Res Ipsa wrote:That’s why I say that, whatever that moral duty to future generations is, I can best fulfill it by based on the needs of the next generation.
Res Ipsa, I think that it's great that you have decided to work towards the benefit of the next generation, and I agree that such work will very likely help future generations. But can we agree that it won't guarantee that humanity will never die out?
Res Ipsa wrote:It’s just an assertion, and it’s a doozy because it asserts that we have a moral duty to make the human race last forever — something that so far as we know is literally impossible.
You said, "so far as we know." I would say that we don't know. Not really.
Res Ipsa wrote:The human race living forever violates the second law of thermodynamics.
And Mercury orbiting the Sun the way it does violates Newton's laws of gravitation. Einstein found a way around that. I don't put it past human engineering skills to find a way around the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
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