Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

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KevinSim
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

hauslern wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:13 pm
KEVIN Would you still belief if it was shown that Smith's intrepretations of the facsimiles were wrong?
God didn't tell me that Smith's interpretations of the facsimiles were right. God told me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true. Can you go from a wrong interpretation of the facsimiles to the conclusion that God doesn't want me in the LDS Church?
Last edited by KevinSim on Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by KevinSim »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:56 am
Kevin, I did not claim you were being controlled.
Drumdude, you said, "It's incredible the amount of mind control the church has over its members." In retrospect, do you think it would have been better to speak of mind control over some of its members?
drumdude wrote:Simply by posting with us on this forum you are going against what the LDS leaders teach.
Yeah, but that's just me. I'll attempt communication with almost anyone, almost anyhow.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:34 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:57 pm
Why do you believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Back in Autumn 1976 as a seventeen-year-old, I asked God if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, and God told me yes. That's why I believe in that Church.
You asked God if an organization was true when you were a teenager? I’d ask you to think about that for a hot second, but I’m not sure thinking is a priority when there’s feeling to be done. “You cannot reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into.”

I guess this question has to be asked now, “If the Church wasn’t true, whatever truth means to you, would you want to know and would you put in the work to study it out in good faith?”

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Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Kishkumen »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:34 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 8:57 pm
Why do you believe in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
Back in Autumn 1976 as a seventeen-year-old, I asked God if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, and God told me yes. That's why I believe in that Church.
Huh! Did not recall that you are active, believing LDS! Glad you are here.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by drumdude »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:08 am
drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 3:56 am
Kevin, I did not claim you were being controlled.
Drumdude, you said, "It's incredible the amount of mind control the church has over its members." In retrospect, do you think it would have been better to speak of mind control over some of its members?
drumdude wrote:Simply by posting with us on this forum you are going against what the LDS leaders teach.
Yeah, but that's just me. I'll attempt communication with almost anyone, almost anyhow.
I think that's admirable. If I said, "It's incredible how nice Mormons are" would you correct me and make sure I said "but not every Mormon?"
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Kishkumen
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Kishkumen »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:40 am
hauslern wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 10:13 pm
KEVIN Would you still belief if it was shown that Smith's intrepretations of the facsimiles were wrong?
God didn't tell me that Smith's interpretations of the facsimiles were right. God told me that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true. Can you go from a wrong interpretation of the facsimiles to the conclusion that God doesn't want me in the LDS Church?
Good response!
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by doubtingthomas »

KevinSim wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:34 am
Back in Autumn 1976 as a seventeen-year-old, I asked God if the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was true, and God told me yes. That's why I believe in that Church.

I see. Makes perfect sense. How did God tell you "Yes"? and what does the Holy Ghost feel like?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Moksha »

Which is the truest automobile manufacturer: General Motors or Toyota?
Was the Vespa the world's truest motor scooter?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by Chap »

I'd like to intervene here with the historical question: when did the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints begin to teach its members to say "the Church is true"?

I ask because that is a very strange kind of thing to say. In the normal usage of modern English, being "true" is something that you can affirm or deny about a proposition, that is some words affirming that something is the case, such as "Jane has blonde hair" or "Nicaragua is a country in Central America" which are examples of propositions that one might say are "true"; however, faced with propositions such as "the moon is made of green cheese" or "Donald Trump is a Mexican immigrant", one might say that those propositions are "false". For this sense of the word, the following examples are given in the Oxford English Dictionary:
4.
a. Of a statement, idea, belief, etc.: in accordance with fact; agreeing with reality; correct.
a1250 Wohunge ure Lauerd in R. Morris Old Eng. Homilies (1868) 1st Ser. 283 A swete ihesu þu oppnes me þin herte for to cnawe witerliche and in to reden trewe luue lettres.
c1275 (▸?a1200) Laȝamon Brut (Calig.) (1963) l. 2217 Belin ihærde sugge þurh summe sæg treowe. of his broðer wifðinge.
c1300 St. Bridget (Laud) l. 10 in C. Horstmann Early S.-Eng. Legendary (1887) 192 (MED) Heo scholde..At a certeyn dai þarof trewe a-countes ȝelde.
▸ c1384 Bible (Wycliffite, E.V.) (Douce 369(2)) (1850) John xxi. 24 We witen, for [a1425 L.V. that] his witnessing is trewe.
c1400 (▸?a1387) W. Langland Piers Plowman (Huntington HM 137) (1873) C. i. l. 100 Al þe wordle [emended in ed. to world] wot wel hit myȝte nat be trywe.
1490 W. Caxton tr. Foure Sonnes of Aymon (1885) xvii. 396 ‘Syr, wyte that charlemagne is come wyth his oost’... ‘Is it true?’ said mawgis.
a1529 J. Skelton Howe Douty Duke of Albany in Wks. (1568) f. ii These tidinges newe Whiche be as trewe As the gospell.
1597 A. Montgomerie Cherrie & Slae 878 I..Thocht all thair tales wer trewe.
1608 A. Willet Hexapla in Exodum xxxiv. 839 The truer opinion.
1650 tr. Nicholas of Cusa Idiot ii. 32 I labour to frame a true conception of God.
1722 J. Bingham Origines Ecclesiasticæ IX. xx. vii. 163 The Fact was too true, and the Charge too well-grounded to be denied of them all in general.
1759 S. Johnson Prince of Abissinia II. xlvii. 158 The same proposition cannot be at once true and false.
1854 D. Lardner Hand-bk. Nat. Philos. & Astron. (new ed.) I. 16 This will be true, however shallow the vessel..and however narrow the tube.
1870 A. Helps Casimir Maremma II. xxxii. 123 Marvellous to relate the rumour proved to be true.
1938 H. Kantorowicz & W. W. Buckland Stud. Glossators Rom. Law ix. 208 No true notion of the lost work could be formed.
1958 C. Achebe Things fall Apart v. 38 Nwoye's younger brothers were about to tell their mother the true story of the accident.
2010 N.Y. Times 10 Nov. b21/5 It's a ridiculous claim and simply not true.

I am however racking my brains to try to think of an example of somebody affirming that an institution or organisation is "true" in anything resembling that sense. There are other senses, such as 'loyal', 'reliable' and so on, but those are normally used of individual persons. No-one ever says that something like the Republican Party, the United Nations, or Microsoft is 'true', do they?

So: who first taught Mormons to say "The church is true", and why did they do that?

(There is an interesting discussion of the uniqueness of this LDS practice by Kevin Barney here:

https://bycommonconsent.com/2015/01/21/ ... h-is-true/

... but it does not address my principal question - Who started this, when, and why? Can anybody here answer that?
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Re: Faithful TBM to doubter in 6 hours on ex-Mormon Reddit

Post by malkie »

Moksha wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:54 am
Which is the truest automobile manufacturer: General Motors or Toyota?
Was the Vespa the world's truest motor scooter?
I cannot speak to automobile truth, but pre-1972, the truest motor scooter, and the most elegant, was undoubtedly Lambretta:
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