DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by doubtingthomas »

I'll baptize everyone here (Discussing Mormonism) in the name of Lord Belphegor.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
IHAQ
God
Posts: 1533
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:00 am

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by IHAQ »

The Nazis sought to exterminate Jews from this life. Proxy baptisms are an attempt to remove them from the next.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by doubtingthomas »

Marcus wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:38 am
where those with Jewish heritage are baptized into a completely different religion, and their history and heritage is completely ignored in favor of a quick dunking, in a repetitive list of names all baptized Mormon.
:lol:


I mean Jesus Christ, I understand the Mormon church deserves a lot of criticism, but Jewish souls are not forced into Mormon paradise. Proxy baptisms don't do anything.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Gadianton »

I honestly wouldn't care.
DCP says the same thing. If he doesn't believe the ritual has any power, then why should he care? That may be true for you, someone who comes off as a loner without many community ties, but for people like himself whose life is built around a tribal, confrontational variety of Mormonism and conservative politics, it's not believable. Intent, gestures, symbols, and all these things are very important to people like him, people on high alert in search of offense.
User avatar
Gadianton
God
Posts: 3842
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:56 pm
Location: Elsewhere

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Gadianton »

And I contrast to that the vicarious work of the temples, where we try to remember and to devote individual attention, so far as we’re able, to everybody who has ever lived. No matter how obscure or insignificant.
what makes this doubly bad that he's "contrasting" loudly with trumpets, as a sales pitch for how great his church is.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Kishkumen »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:10 pm
It's strange that Mormons rely on the tired excuse, "God will figure it out in the afterlife" for everything except Jewish baptisms. Apparently that is a bridge too far for the Mormon god.
Except that they most definitely *do not* rely on that tired excuse. There is no excuse. There is a theology of personal agency, in which people who do not want to accept proxy ordinances executed on their behalf are not compelled in any way to do so. They can simply "opt out" of the ordinances. Until they, of their own volition, opt in, those ordinances are in a sense dormant. They are only binding when the person accepts them.

I am in complete agreement that the LDS Church should honor the Jewish People by not performing vicarious ordinances for Jews, unless a Jewish convert wishes to perform those ordinances for their own ancestors. In the latter case, the wishes of other Jews should not automatically have precedence over the wish of Jewish LDS people. If they were to have automatic precedence, then that Jewish convert would be robbed of the opportunity to avail themselves of the full privileges and opportunities of LDS membership.

In accordance with actual LDS theology, no one is impacted by LDS ordinances against their will. No one. The only reason not to continue to perform ordinances as an expression of good will and care for the exaltation of all--according to LDS belief--is to place a greater value on the feelings of living Jews who strenuously object to the performance of those ordinances for understandable symbolic reasons. If they feel erased by these efforts, then that is a problem that can't be ignored. It is better not to poison that important relationship.

At the same time, Mormons most definitely do not believe that Jews are made non-Jews by accepting the LDS Gospel. And that is what makes this whole situation doubly unfortunate. Jews are of the tribe of Judah. LDS-baptized Jews remain of the tribe of Judah. Period. If anything, non-Jewish LDS people take a step toward Israel when they become members. Jewish members do not take a step away from the tribe of Judah when they become LDS.
Last edited by Kishkumen on Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Kishkumen »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:08 am
How would Peterson feel if a recently formed Evangelical sect, which had emerged from a tradition with a lot of violent anti-Mormonism in it, performed a vicarious, posthumous baptism of Peterson's parents?
He wouldn't care. Seriously.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6121
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Kishkumen »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:13 am
And don’t forget, DCP’s accent was permanently altered because he learned “perfect” German on his mission.

A psychiatrist would have a field day with DCP’s Nazi obsession.
So now we are slurring against German people. I took German in college. Are you telling me that I have a Nazi fetish on that basis?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Marcus
God
Posts: 5034
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Marcus »

i disagree that performing ordinances for jewish victims of the holocaust is harmless and acceptable, but this time, it was peterson's presentation of his religion's efforts in honoring the dead, stated specifically in contrast to nazi extermination AND the efforts of the Hall of Records that was despicable. look at how he presents it:
Marcus wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 5:38 am
Peterson, shamefully comparing nazis with jewish hall of records efforts, wrote:
One of the most haunting places in Yad Vashem is a hall of records containing the names of Holocaust victims. Book after book after book after book. But just as horrifying is the acknowledgment in that hall that there are entire Jewish villages and towns that were completely wiped out. No records survive. We don’t even know the names of those who died.

The Nazis’ goal was not only extermination or liquidation. It was erasure. And so it has been with other totalitarian regimes.

And I contrast to that the vicarious work of the temples, where we try to remember and to devote individual attention, so far as we’re able, to everybody who has ever lived. No matter how obscure or insignificant.
not only does he ignore the vast efforts made to remember and respect the victims, but he lumps the Yad Vashem Hall of Records efforts and the Nazis efforts together-- in contrast to the ineffectual work of Mormon temples on the other. that pronouncement of his church's meaningless efforts completely ignores the reality of how victims are remembered and respected elsewhere.

see my other quote:
The Hall of Names at Yad Vashem is the Jewish People’s memorial to each Jew murdered in the Holocaust – a place where they are commemorated for generations to come.

Yad Vashem, with the support of Jewish communities and organizations around the world, is leading the historic mission to memorialize Jewish victims of the Holocaust by collecting “Pages of Testimony" – special one-page forms designed to restore the personal identity and brief life stories of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their accomplices. Submitted by survivors, remaining family members or friends and acquaintances in commemoration of Jews who perished in the Holocaust, Pages of Testimony document the names, biographical details and, when available, photographs, of each individual victim. The first 800,000 names on Pages of Testimony were collected during the 1950's, with ongoing global outreach efforts to identify the unnamed victims of the Shoah so they will always be remembered.

Collection efforts continued throughout the years in Israel and among Jewish communities throughout the world. A “Room of Names” was opened in 1968 on Yad Vashem’s campus on the Mount of Remembrance in Jerusalem. The room was the repository for the original handwritten Pages of Testimony stored in special black Yizkor files, catalogued alphabetically in Hebrew according to first and last names. In 1977 the “Hall of Names” was inaugurated in a specially designed building in the presence of Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Joseph Burg, the Chairman of Yad Vashem’s International Council.

Between 1984 to 1985 Yad Vashem undertook to microfilm close to 1.1 million Pages of Testimony that had been collected up to that time. On the backdrop of a growing number of public inquries on the fate of Holocaust victims, the microfilm enabled staff to search for victims' names more efficiently thereby improving their service. At the same time it created a vital backup copy of the Pages of Testimony collection. During the 1980’s the average number of Pages of Testimony collected at Yad Vashem’s Hall of Names was 15,000 new pages per year. The fall of the "Iron Curtain" separating the former Soviet Union from the West, resulted in a dramatic increase of new Pages of Testimony in the 1990's, raising the annual collection to around 35,000.

In 1990, the Hall of Names extended its scope beyond Pages of Testimony, and began to actively gather and process lists of names originating from deportations, camps and ghetto records. The computerization of the names from all sources began in late 1991 and expanded until the end of 1998 when almost one million names had beed computerized.

A milestone in the history of the Hall of Names was reached in 1999. Yad Vashem embarked on an impressive and intensive project to computerize more than 1.1 million Pages of Testimony, including the scanning of all 1.6 million paper forms collected up to that time. The project was implemented together with Tadiran Information Systems and Manpower Israel in conjunction with, and funded by the Independent Committee of Eminent Persons (ICEP) established to resolve the public issue of the dormant accounts in Swiss banks. The project spanned from February to May 1999 with the assistance of a staff of 1,000 and 100 IT and content specialists working two shifts in two different locations, Jerusalem and Beer Sheba. The computerized database with over two million names of Holocaust victims, enabled the ICEP representatives to cross-reference the names with owners of the the dormant accounts.

On May 8th 1999, under the auspices of President Ezer Weizman, Yad Vashem initiated a well publicized world wide media campaign to collect Pages of Testimony. The public response was overwhelming: a call center with 20 phone lines and 90 staff members working double shifts was established to handle the large volume of incoming inquiries in real time. During the months of April and May alone some 147,000 Pages of Testimony were received, amounting to a total of about 380,000 by the end of 1999. The aftermath of the campaign was felt in 2000 as well; an additional 70,000 Pages of Testimony were collected. Although the names collection campaign was targeted also to Jewish communities around the world, around 85% of the Pages of Testimony collected had been submitted in Israel. Surprisingly, more than 80% of all incoming pages actually contained names of victims that were not previously recorded at the Hall of Names. This statistic reinforced the great significance of the campaign at that point in time.

By the year 2000, the initial computerization project and media campaign resulted in the creation of a database containing close to 2.5 million names of Holocaust victims at the Hall of Names. Founded on a sophisticated technological platform the names database was updated and upgraded. Advanced search capabilities including soundex and synonym searches were developed in order to enhance retrieval possibilities. On November 22nd 2004, the Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names was launched and uploaded to the Yad Vashem website offering the general public full and free accessibility to close to three million victims' names in English and Hebrew. In 2007, the option to consult the names database in Russian (Cyrillic characters) was also made available.

The new Holocaust History Museum complex inaugurated in spring 2005, includes a newly designed Hall of Names, built with the generous contribution of the Rothschild-Caesarea Foundation. The Hall of Names currently houses about 2.7 million original Pages of Testimony in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Surrounded by fragments of Pages of Testimony and portraits of Holocaust victims from different countries and backgrounds, visitors to the Hall can reflect on the destruction of the pre-war Jewish world. Adjacent to the circular memorial is a computer center where the public may seek information on the fates of the victims through the Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-of-names.html
peterson's ignorance of these efforts, whether feigned or real, written so he can brag his religion is where victims are "remembered" and "respected" victims, does a great disservice to his readers. how many of them go away, comforted that they, in all the world, are doing right by holocaust victims?
drumdude
God
Posts: 5214
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by drumdude »

Kishkumen wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:11 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 02, 2022 10:10 pm
It's strange that Mormons rely on the tired excuse, "God will figure it out in the afterlife" for everything except Jewish baptisms. Apparently that is a bridge too far for the Mormon god.
Except that they most definitely *do not* rely on that tired excuse. There is no excuse. There is a theology of personal agency, in which people who do not want to accept proxy ordinances executed on their behalf are not compelled in any way to do so. They can simply "opt out" of the ordinances. Until they, of their own volition, opt in, those ordinances are in a sense dormant. They are only binding when the person accepts them.

I am in complete agreement that the LDS Church should honor the Jewish People by not performing vicarious ordinances for Jews, unless a Jewish convert wishes to perform those ordinances for their own ancestors. In the latter case, the wishes of other Jews should not automatically have precedence over the wish of Jewish LDS people. If they were to have automatic precedence, then that Jewish convert would be robbed of the opportunity to avail themselves of the full privileges and opportunities of LDS membership.

In accordance with actual LDS theology, no one is impacted by LDS ordinances against their will. No one. The only reason not to continue to perform ordinances as an expression of good will and care for the exaltation of all--according to LDS belief--is to place a greater value on the feelings of living Jews who strenuously object to the performance of those ordinances for understandable symbolic reasons. If they feel erased by these efforts, then that is a problem that can't be ignored. It is better not to poison that important relationship.

At the same time, Mormons most definitely do not believe that Jews are made non-Jews by accepting the LDS Gospel. And that is what makes this whole situation doubly unfortunate. Jews are of the tribe of Judah. LDS-baptized Jews remain of the tribe of Judah. Period. If anything, non-Jewish LDS people take a step toward Israel when they become members. Jewish members do not take a step away from the tribe of Judah when they become LDS.

The point I was going for is that, why does Daniel continue to argue that baptisms are necessary in this life? Why can’t it be fixed later? His own church leaders in 1995 agreed to stop baptizing Holocaust victims. Did they lie? Do they think the unbaptized Holocaust victims will be damned now because Mormons weren’t able to proxy baptize them in this life? Daniel continues to whinge about it as if it’s necessary to baptize them here.

Is it because if we allow God to be able to take care of baptisms in the afterlife, it completely undermines the logical necessity of Mormons going to the temple in this life?
Post Reply