DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

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drumdude
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DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by drumdude »

DP wrote:One of the great achievements of the twentieth century was the application of industrial methods to the systematic extermination of mass numbers of humans. Monumental effort and even ingenuity were devoted to the systematic transformation of persons — unique individuals, with complex personalities and minds and non-reproducible biographies — into non-persons.
How do Mormons fix this self-created problem? By baptizing Holocaust victims, of course.
DP wrote:In the temples of the Latter-day Saints, however, their names have been spoken again. They’ve been remembered. Valued. Served.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... kness.html


It's worth remembering Daniel's consistent pattern of crass blatant disregard for the dignity and wishes of Jews, especially those who died in the Holocaust:
DP in 2018 wrote:From an outsider’s unbelieving perspective, all we’re doing is quietly mentioning a dead person’s name in connection with a few other words, and then plunging somebody else into a water tank located in a very private place. It takes approximately half a minute. I find it extremely difficult to see how the practice really harms anybody, if one assumes that it has no effect on the dead. And one can only assume that it has actual effect on the dead if one assumes that Mormon beliefs are true, that Mormon priesthood authority is efficacious in the next life, and that Mormon temple rituals are divinely ordained. In which case, again, it’s difficult to see how offering the gift of vicarious baptism actually hurts anybody.
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... -jews.html
Bernard I. Kouchel wrote:The wrongful baptism of Jewish dead, which disparages the memory of a deceased person is a brazen act which will obscure the historical record for future generations. It has been bitterly opposed by many Jews for a number of years. Others say they will never stop being Jews, simply because there is a paper saying they had been baptized, that the act of posthumous baptism is unimportant and should be ignored. We think this to be a narrow, parochial, and shallow view. We will continue opposing this wrongful act which assimilates our dead to the point where it will not be possible to know who was Jewish in their lifetimes.

This author was among the first genealogists to discover the names of thousands of Jewish Holocaust victims in the International Genealogical Index (the "IGI") 1, the official Mormon index of proxy baptisms for the dead, and quickly exposed this misguided practice.

Names are placed in the IGI by individual Mormon researchers or through Church name extraction programs. The names were extracted 2 mainly from two Holocaust memorial books. Gedenkbuch was extracted by individuals; the Memorbuch was part of the Church's 'Extraction Program', an ongoing program that acquired records and distributed them to trained Church member volunteers who then extracted the names and submitted them for posthumous baptism.3

A protest drive initiated by Jewish genealogists escalated it to a nationally publicized issue that was followed by public outcry. American Jewish leaders considered it an insult and a major setback for interfaith relations. They initiated discussions with the Mormon Church that culminated in a voluntary 1995 agreement by the Church to remove the inappropriate names. Activists continue to monitor Mormon baptismal lists, seeking removal of inappropriate entries.
https://www.jewishgen.org/infofiles/ldsagree.html


It's strange that Mormons rely on the tired excuse, "God will figure it out in the afterlife" for everything except Jewish baptisms. Apparently that is a bridge too far for the Mormon god.
Marcus
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Marcus »

is peterson under some mistaken impression that only Mormons remember and celebrate their ancestors and heritage?
...we attended the temple in San Diego, California. ... I received the name of a man named Joshua Wilson, who was married in Pope County, Illinois, on 5 August 1830. As Latter-day Saint temple-goers will know, such matters are fairly typical when we visit the temple to perform vicarious ordinances for the dead.

I tried to imagine Joshua Wilson’s life...[T]here’s likely nobody alive who ever knew anybody who knew him. He and she have both been forgotten. And let’s have no sentimental twaddle about how they live on in the memories of their descendants. Because they don’t. Unless it’s in the memory of a family history researcher.

In the temples of the Latter-day Saints, however, their names have been spoken again. They’ve been remembered. Valued. Served.
how arrogant and rudely dismissive of the cultural practices of the entire rest of the world.
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Moksha »

Would this affect the Jewish practice of paying others to hold their place in line at the Pearly Gates?
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Physics Guy
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Physics Guy »

How would Peterson feel if a recently formed Evangelical sect, which had emerged from a tradition with a lot of violent anti-Mormonism in it, performed a vicarious, posthumous baptism of Peterson's parents?

Would Peterson be grateful for these zealots' good intentions, even though he felt their ceremony was ineffective and unnecessary? Or would he be offended that they had used his parents' names in a ceremony that proclaimed that Mormon ordinances were worthless? Would he consider this Evangelical ritual to be a harmless act of personal religious conviction, or would he detect in it a strain of continuing anti-Mormon bigotry?

Even if Peterson himself would feel nothing but gratitude under those circumstances, would he perhaps find it understandable for some other faithful Mormon to be offended at having their parents vicariously baptised by this group? Or would he really insist that no Mormons anywhere had any right or reason to complain about this vicarious Evangelical baptism thing?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

It should be noted nearly 10% of his articles contain either a reference to the Nazis or the Holocaust. That’s an astounding number of blog entries devoted to the topic(s). You know how some say that the guy who talks a lot about homosexuality is usually covering for his own same-sex issues? Yeah. Homeslice seems to be awfully fixated on Nazi Germany. Like. Really fixated on it.

Just sayin’.

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Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:52 am
It should be noted nearly 10% of his articles contain either a reference to the Nazis or the Holocaust. That’s an astounding number of blog entries devoted to the topic(s). You know how some say that the guy who talks a lot about homosexuality is usually covering for his own same-sex issues? Yeah. Homeslice seems to be awfully fixated on Nazi Germany. Like. Really fixated on it.

Just sayin’.

- Doc
And don’t forget, DCP’s accent was permanently altered because he learned “perfect” German on his mission.

A psychiatrist would have a field day with DCP’s Nazi obsession.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Doctor Scratch »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:08 am
How would Peterson feel if a recently formed Evangelical sect, which had emerged from a tradition with a lot of violent anti-Mormonism in it, performed a vicarious, posthumous baptism of Peterson's parents?

Would Peterson be grateful for these zealots' good intentions, even though he felt their ceremony was ineffective and unnecessary? Or would he be offended that they had used his parents' names in a ceremony that proclaimed that Mormon ordinances were worthless? Would he consider this Evangelical ritual to be a harmless act of personal religious conviction, or would he detect in it a strain of continuing anti-Mormon bigotry?

Even if Peterson himself would feel nothing but gratitude under those circumstances, would he perhaps find it understandable for some other faithful Mormon to be offended at having their parents vicariously baptised by this group? Or would he really insist that no Mormons anywhere had any right or reason to complain about this vicarious Evangelical baptism thing?
You make a great point, PG, and I think it really underscores the Mopologists’ fundamental myopia on this issue. Do they really not get why others might take issue with this? Or do they understand, but just don’t care?

I think another valuable comparison is with ex-Mormons who genuinely believe that they’re helping Latter-day Saints by “showing them the light.” I mean, all it is is sharing a few links to a harmless website called the CES Letter. It takes barely a second and from an outsider’s perspective has zero meaning whatsoever. Plus, if Mormonism really is the Lord’s One True Church, then it’s hard to see how this is of any consequence.
"If, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
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Gadianton
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Gadianton »

Physics Guy wrote: Or would he be offended that they had used his parents' names in a ceremony that proclaimed that Mormon ordinances were worthless?
He would claim he has no problem with it, has has as much before, but that's just because he has to say that to fit his apologetic. How would he react if he didn't need to welcome it as part of his apologetic for Mormonism?

I think there's a clue in how bent out of shape he got over a "public building" displaying a flag. He's very sensitive about symbols and gestures and etiquette. People who follow Hitchens and spell "God" in lowercase get taken to task on his blog. There is nothing in his character I've seen to indicate he'd accept such a scenario.
doubtingthomas
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by doubtingthomas »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:08 am
How would Peterson feel if a recently formed Evangelical sect, which had emerged from a tradition with a lot of violent anti-Mormonism in it, performed a vicarious, posthumous baptism of Peterson's parents?
I honestly wouldn't care.
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Marcus
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Re: DP continues with his Holocaust fetish

Post by Marcus »

Peterson, shamefully comparing nazis with jewish hall of records efforts, wrote:
One of the most haunting places in Yad Vashem is a hall of records containing the names of Holocaust victims. Book after book after book after book. But just as horrifying is the acknowledgment in that hall that there are entire Jewish villages and towns that were completely wiped out. No records survive. We don’t even know the names of those who died.

The Nazis’ goal was not only extermination or liquidation. It was erasure. And so it has been with other totalitarian regimes.

And I contrast to that the vicarious work of the temples, where we try to remember and to devote individual attention, so far as we’re able, to everybody who has ever lived. No matter how obscure or insignificant.
so, Peterson contrasts the Yad Vashem Hall of Records and the Nazis on the one hand-- with the work of Mormon temples on the other.

this is despicable and completely ignores what is being done.
The Hall of Names at Yad Vashem is the Jewish People’s memorial to each Jew murdered in the Holocaust – a place where they are commemorated for generations to come.

Yad Vashem, with the support of Jewish communities and organizations around the world, is leading the historic mission to memorialize Jewish victims of the Holocaust by collecting “Pages of Testimony" – special one-page forms designed to restore the personal identity and brief life stories of the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis and their accomplices. Submitted by survivors, remaining family members or friends and acquaintances in commemoration of Jews who perished in the Holocaust, Pages of Testimony document the names, biographical details and, when available, photographs, of each individual victim. The first 800,000 names on Pages of Testimony were collected during the 1950's, with ongoing global outreach efforts to identify the unnamed victims of the Shoah so they will always be remembered.

Collection efforts continued throughout the years in Israel and among Jewish communities throughout the world. A “Room of Names” was opened in 1968 on Yad Vashem’s campus on the Mount of Remembrance in Jerusalem. The room was the repository for the original handwritten Pages of Testimony stored in special black Yizkor files, catalogued alphabetically in Hebrew according to first and last names. In 1977 the “Hall of Names” was inaugurated in a specially designed building in the presence of Prime Minister Menachem Begin and Joseph Burg, the Chairman of Yad Vashem’s International Council.

Between 1984 to 1985 Yad Vashem undertook to microfilm close to 1.1 million Pages of Testimony that had been collected up to that time. On the backdrop of a growing number of public inquries on the fate of Holocaust victims, the microfilm enabled staff to search for victims' names more efficiently thereby improving their service. At the same time it created a vital backup copy of the Pages of Testimony collection. During the 1980’s the average number of Pages of Testimony collected at Yad Vashem’s Hall of Names was 15,000 new pages per year. The fall of the "Iron Curtain" separating the former Soviet Union from the West, resulted in a dramatic increase of new Pages of Testimony in the 1990's, raising the annual collection to around 35,000.

In 1990, the Hall of Names extended its scope beyond Pages of Testimony, and began to actively gather and process lists of names originating from deportations, camps and ghetto records. The computerization of the names from all sources began in late 1991 and expanded until the end of 1998 when almost one million names had beed computerized.

A milestone in the history of the Hall of Names was reached in 1999. Yad Vashem embarked on an impressive and intensive project to computerize more than 1.1 million Pages of Testimony, including the scanning of all 1.6 million paper forms collected up to that time. The project was implemented together with Tadiran Information Systems and Manpower Israel in conjunction with, and funded by the Independent Committee of Eminent Persons (ICEP) established to resolve the public issue of the dormant accounts in Swiss banks. The project spanned from February to May 1999 with the assistance of a staff of 1,000 and 100 IT and content specialists working two shifts in two different locations, Jerusalem and Beer Sheba. The computerized database with over two million names of Holocaust victims, enabled the ICEP representatives to cross-reference the names with owners of the the dormant accounts.

On May 8th 1999, under the auspices of President Ezer Weizman, Yad Vashem initiated a well publicized world wide media campaign to collect Pages of Testimony. The public response was overwhelming: a call center with 20 phone lines and 90 staff members working double shifts was established to handle the large volume of incoming inquiries in real time. During the months of April and May alone some 147,000 Pages of Testimony were received, amounting to a total of about 380,000 by the end of 1999. The aftermath of the campaign was felt in 2000 as well; an additional 70,000 Pages of Testimony were collected. Although the names collection campaign was targeted also to Jewish communities around the world, around 85% of the Pages of Testimony collected had been submitted in Israel. Surprisingly, more than 80% of all incoming pages actually contained names of victims that were not previously recorded at the Hall of Names. This statistic reinforced the great significance of the campaign at that point in time.

By the year 2000, the initial computerization project and media campaign resulted in the creation of a database containing close to 2.5 million names of Holocaust victims at the Hall of Names. Founded on a sophisticated technological platform the names database was updated and upgraded. Advanced search capabilities including soundex and synonym searches were developed in order to enhance retrieval possibilities. On November 22nd 2004, the Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names was launched and uploaded to the Yad Vashem website offering the general public full and free accessibility to close to three million victims' names in English and Hebrew. In 2007, the option to consult the names database in Russian (Cyrillic characters) was also made available.

The new Holocaust History Museum complex inaugurated in spring 2005, includes a newly designed Hall of Names, built with the generous contribution of the Rothschild-Caesarea Foundation. The Hall of Names currently houses about 2.7 million original Pages of Testimony in a temperature and humidity controlled environment. Surrounded by fragments of Pages of Testimony and portraits of Holocaust victims from different countries and backgrounds, visitors to the Hall can reflect on the destruction of the pre-war Jewish world. Adjacent to the circular memorial is a computer center where the public may seek information on the fates of the victims through the Central Database of Shoah Victims’ Names.

https://www.yadvashem.org/archive/hall-of-names.html
Peterson not only lumps this in with nazi atrocities, but he also contrasts this with the "vicarious work of the temple," where those with Jewish heritage are baptized into a completely different religion, and their history and heritage is completely ignored in favor of a quick dunking, in a repetitive list of names all baptized Mormon.

peterson's position is shameful.
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