I know that, but it's similar. Rather than just a link with no explanation, it's pasted material from a copywritten site and no explanation for that material. It's CUT, PASTE, and RUN! It's transferring whole material from one website to another.
If I remember right, the old MAD board was against Cut 'N Paste. I think they wanted some degree of board poster participation beyond just putting up a load of scriptures or quotations from some General Authority. I know I have been annoyed in the past reading some direct regurgitation from the Breitbart website plastered to the Shades Board without some poster input or analysis.
One other point, quibbling over John Dehlin's message seems so JPattersonish.
So ... if a person is addressing young Mormons, who spend much of their lives being dictated to by elderly men, what precise turn of phrase could that person use to warn them against simply doing whatever those elderly men tell them to do, without you accusing him of 'dictating' to them himself?
I'm really not following, Chap. What makes you think dictating a message to youth is wrong? Why is it an accusation to point out his dictated message is dictated? That's more of an observation, I'd think.
[...]
I think we may come from what some people call communities of usage for the significance of the phrase "dictating to someone" and its variants in contexts such as the one in which we are posting. If people like me say "X is dictating to Y" (outside the connection with stenography) it means "X is speaking to Y from a position in which Y is believed to have no choice but to do what X says". Thus at the end of WWII, the Allies dictated the terms of surrender to Germany; a kidnapper might phone up the parents of an abducted child and dictate what they must do to secure the child's release, and so on. The Oxford English Dictionary collects the following examples under sense 4(b):
intransitive. To make a prescription, stipulation, or ruling; to lay down the law; to give orders, be in command.
a1628 N. Carpenter Achitophel (1629) 38 As though God could not as well direct our studie, as strengthen our deliuerie; and there were not a place as well for attention to follow, as inuention to dictate in our Deuotion.
1651 T. Hobbes Philos. Rudim. vii. §8. 125 We have seen how Subjects, nature dictating, have oblig'd themselves..to obey the Supreme Power.
1728 A. Pope Dunciad ii. 331 To cavil, censure, dictate, right or wrong.
1755 E. Young Centaur iii. 156 Did this poor, pallid, scarce-animated Mass dictate in the cabinet of Pleasure?
1807 Salmagundi 24 Feb. 58 He is the oracle of the family, dictates to his sisters on every occasion.
1871 ‘G. Eliot’ Middlemarch (1872) I. i. ix. 122 A woman dictates before marriage in order that she may have an appetite for submission afterwards.
1931 J. T. Adams Epic of Amer. vii. 185 There he was, rich as Crœsus, and dictating to the government.
1961 Times 9 Feb. 13/5 It is a quite intolerable invasion of individual liberty of conscience that any third party should seek to dictate to a woman on a matter of such importance.
1991 R. P. Formisano Boston against Busing ii. 36 Once again outsiders, no longer mainly Yankee or rural, were dictating to Boston's untrustworthy Irish about how to run their city.
Mormon prophets certainly dictate to young Mormons in this sense. Someone who says to young Mormons "Think for yourselves" is certainly not.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
I know that, but it's similar. Rather than just a link with no explanation, it's pasted material from a copywritten site and no explanation for that material. It's CUT, PASTE, and RUN! It's transferring whole material from one website to another.
If I remember right, the old MAD board was against Cut 'N Paste. I think they wanted some degree of board poster participation beyond just putting up a load of scriptures or quotations from some General Authority. I know I have been annoyed in the past reading some direct regurgitation from the Breitbart website plastered to the Shades Board without some poster input or analysis.
One other point, quibbling over John Dehlin's message seems so JPattersonish.
I apologize for derailing the thread, somewhat, but the cutting and pasting performed by Elizabeth shouldn't be tolerated. She is disrupting the board and causing confusion because the intent it to just post copyrighted material without any thought or discussion to what she is posting. This should not be tolerated. I think the moderators up in Celestial have really dropped the ball on this one and should reconsider tossing her threads in Spam or getting rid of them altogether. Is she going to post all of LDS.org on Shade's board? What the hell is that? When is enough enough? 1000 pages of copyrighted material?
Thanks for the lesson, chap. I suppose however we choose to read things matters and perspective matters. Leaders may say just as well, “think for yourselves” even contradicting themselves at various times like Dehlin does in the video. I’m not sure I care much about whether it’s technically a command of sorts or not. It seems he contradicted himself and that was the point I made. Whether “dictate” can apply to “do this…” commands or not doesn’t seem to really matter, since in common talk we can use words as we choose. Someone could rightly say “don’t command me” in response to dehlins comments, just as much as one could say the same to anyone saying a mission is a commandment. This leads hopefully to my comments below on perspective.
I recall years back as I offered critiques or challenged church teaching while active. The dismissals almost always resembled the “that sounds James Patterson-ish” idea mentioned above. I’m kind of like “yuck” since I was a Patterson critic here, perhaps one of the harshest. But being compared to grant Palmer or Dehlin himself made the dismissals easy for everyone else back in the day. This brought back the memories.
We may consider calling any Dehlin critic of any sort a pattie or something in hopes to conjure up our old feelings towards anti Mormons. We may, but it seems silly to me. Dehlin is just some guy who found a way to profit off of unbelief. I’ve heard members say that criticizing him, but in truth it too is not much more than an observation. We probably shouldn’t be offended nor get defensive for that. It’s simply true. It’s also true, we ought to admit without shame or guilt, that Dehlin makes more on his ministry, if you will, then any Mormon leader makes, or so some people have said.
So on perspective I wanted to explore a bit. I can certainly see dehlins video as manipulation from a believers perspective, much like we often see church leaders manipulating members. In fact even as a nonbeliever it’s pretty applicable. Telling kids to not listen to church leaders and listen to him would likely work best on teenagers who struggle with their faith. Is he searching for a certain type? Is he throwing it out for future returns? I’m not sure. Those young members with perhaps a bit of angst wanting to rebel against their parents, maybe? I’m certain dehlins critique could resonate notwithstanding contradictions and emotional appeals. It was that bad of a teaching by that stake leader.
One could imagine it might not be too long before Dehlin gets some donations from such kids. Who knows? But that’s just the thing, why is it egregious manipulation for leaders to preach what they sincerely think, like missions are commanded, and yet dehlins commands or whatever we call them, aren’t manipulations? After all the only one financially compensated here is Dehlin. He stands to gain while the stake president supposedly erred in overstating his opinion, perhaps sincerely held, but gets nothing in return (granted he may be thinking god will bless him seven fold, but we don’t know that).
With that said, I’ll repeat, I agree with Dehlin in that the talk/teaching should not spread. Kids should definitely see it as having a choice to serve a mission or not. This would only make it more difficult for kids who choose not to go. And I welcome all Patterson comparisons. Poor guy had a terrible perspective and argument, as I saw it. If I’m that bad I ought to be mocked.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
But that’s just the thing, why is it egregious manipulation for leaders to preach what they sincerely think, like missions are commanded, and yet dehlins commands or whatever we call them, aren’t manipulations?
Because the truth claims of the church are demonstrably false. That is the difference. Whether someone profits off it is no different than someone getting funds to operate an anti propaganda campaign deep inside Nazi Germany. You might suggest the dollar for dollar comparison is not the same but the moral aspect is. And before I get jumped on for a Nazi holocaust comparison for some small church originating in Utah the hyperbole was intentional to make the point. People preach sincere beliefs all the time that are just nonsense. And their nonsense is not considered sincere when they don't coincide with reality. Even if they think it does.
And I welcome all Patterson comparisons. Poor guy had a terrible perspective and argument, as I saw it. If I’m that bad I ought to be mocked.
Hey, I'm a Stemelbow fan so I would not want to mock you. However, I was happy that Dehlin put together a short video in opposition to young LDS boys being told that their free agency is now abrogated and has been replaced with the moral agency of a required mission. Seems to me that these boys probably receive peer and family pressure to submit and comply and adding religious obligation is over the top.
Somebody needed to step up and let them know they should still have a choice in making such a monumental commitment. Of course, he really did not tell them directly. They will probably never hear that message. But for those of us who would like to imagine some balance in universal justice and karma, it was most welcome. If not Dehlin then who? RFM could have been more eloquent, but Dehlin stepped up and made the video.
He should be released from his calling, immediately. He’s preaching that there isn’t agency - wasn’t that someone else’s plan?
He is exactly why young people leave the church.
Not so fast...
This guy is just doing his best Bednar impersonation. It's creepily accurate.
Link to Bednar's made-up B.S. for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmErOV9oQZ8
My comments equally apply to “I Am Scripture” “There Are No Homosexuals In The Church” Bednar.
When John Dehlin starts demanding ten percent of his viewers income I think the comparisons between him and the church will become valid.
As far as I’m aware we are not at that point…
Nailed it.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
