The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by drumdude »

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... ss-plates/
Interpreter wrote:Abstract: Contemporary Palestinian archaeology has produced two major threats to traditional interpretations of the history of ancient Israel. The first threat, which derives from scientific discomfort with the exodus story as an explanation for the sudden population expansion in southern Palestine at the beginning of the Iron Age (c. 1200 bce), has led to a wide variety of theories about how these Israelites could have been drawn from existing populations in the general area. This challenge is answerable in ways that preserve the exodus account, which is fundamental to the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible. The second threat is the glaring mismatch between the biblical glorification of David and Solomon’s “empire” and disparagement of the northern kingdom combined with the archaeological finding that the cities of the northern kingdom were far larger and more advanced than Jerusalem and the south. This discrepancy between archaeology and the biblical record provided support for the widely embraced theory that everything from Genesis through Kings had been revised to promote the political and religious preeminence of Judah above the other tribes. This second challenge does fit the archaeology and contemporary textual interpretations. But it also provides stronger grounding for the hypothesis that Nephi’s Brass Plates could have been produced by an ancient Manassite scribal school of which he and his father were highly trained members, and which may have been out of sync with the Jewish scribal schools and the elders of Jerusalem.
I do appreciate when Mormons acknowledge that historicity matters, and if it can be demonstrated that these events did not occur, then that is a threat to faith.

What is the "scientific discomfort" based on? Lack of extrabiblical evidence.
Biblical History and Israel's Past: The Changing Study of the Bible and History (2011). Megan Bishop Moore, Brad E. Kelle p.81 wrote:Most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider information about the Egyptian sojourn, the exodus, and the wilderness wanderings recoverable or even relevant to Israel's emergence. Many of the same methodological difficulties that led to the disappearance of the "patriarchal period" from histories of ancient Israel led scholars to this conclusion. Most important is the fact that no clear extrabiblical evidence exists for any aspect of the Egyptian sojourn, exodus, or wilderness wanderings. This lack of evidence, combined with the fact that most scholars believe the stories about these events to have been written centuries after the apparent setting of the stories, leads historians to a choice similar to the one they have with the patriarchs, and matriarchs: admit that by normal, critical, historical means, these events cannot be placed in a specific time and correlated with other known history, or claim that the stories are believable historically on the basis of inference, potential connections, and general plausibility.
No extrabiblical evidence? How about the Book of freakin Mormon! Golden plates to the rescue!
Interpreter wrote:The Book of Mormon ... Nephite record quotes repeatedly from the Brass Plates, another independent Israelite record written in Egyptian and going back to Abraham himself that includes and documents with contemporary accounts the very history and prophecies that are doubted by so many scholars today.

As described by Nephi and his successors, the records in the Brass Plates address the root cause of modern scholarly skepticism directly. The Brass Plates version of Israelite history and prophecies does not depend on an undocumented process wherein oral traditions across many centuries were gradually transcribed and edited as we have in the Hebrew Bible. Rather, the Brass Plates of Nephi contained a collection of written prophecies and histories created and maintained by Abraham himself and his posterity in a Josephite/Manassite scribal school across a full millennium using Egyptian language and script.

While much of that record was unique, it did include important Old Testament prophecies and histories that witnessed the authenticity, if not the exact wording, of Old Testament traditions. It specifically contained its own version of the five books of Moses, the writings and prophecies of Joseph (not included in the Hebrew Bible), the prophecies of Isaiah, and other prophecies and histories. Importantly, it was written principally in Egyptian, a language and script that was fully available to Abraham, Joseph, and Moses. Further, it was preserved intact in final written form across all those centuries in which the other tribes of Israel are said to have relied on oral Hebrew-language traditions that had to be transcribed and harmonized in the seventh century or even later in Jerusalem.
You can't make this stuff up. :lol:

You know Mormon apologists are just daydreaming about the day when Oxford and Harvard's history departments are teaching that the gold plates overturned all of modern archeology and proved the exodus is historical.
hauslern
1st Counselor
Posts: 474
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 2:36 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by hauslern »

All the participants should read Isreal Finkelstein's The Bible Unearthed. There is also a little book The Bible Tells Me So where Peter Enns admits that archaeology does not support the historcity of the conquest. Some cities listed did not even exist at that time. There is no evidence that the Israelites settled in Kadesh for a long time. The Interpreter has a paper by a guy who is not even an archaeologist.

https://journal.interpreterfoundation.o ... ss-plates/

Noel Reynolds (PhD, Harvard University) is an emeritus professor of political science at Brigham Young University, where he taught a broad range of courses in legal and political philosophy, American Heritage, and the Book of Mormon. His research and publications are based in these fields and several others, including authorship studies, Mormon history, Christian history and theology, and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

One Facebook friend wrote "Yep. He’s retired now. It’s cool that he has opinions on this but his methods are flawed and his analysis is, honestly, not very good. He makes it clear at the beginning that he’s trying to make the two traditional points work within the evidence any way he possibly can."

"According to the bibical narrative the children of Israel camped at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings.... yet repeated excavations and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence for activity in the late bronze age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees" (p. 63, The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein).
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by doubtingthomas »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:12 pm
You know Mormon apologists are just daydreaming about the day when Oxford and Harvard's history departments are teaching that the gold plates overturned all of modern archeology and proved the exodus is historical.
I bet someday the Mormon apologists are going to say that the Book of Mormon and Exodus are inspired parables.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8981
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

A guy by the name of Briggs settled the matter of Biblical authenticity back in the 1890's:
If you had to pick a single starting point of this divergence in Protestant belief in America, I would say it should be the Briggs controversy in 1891. Charles Briggs was a professor of theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, Old Testament scholar, and Presbyterian elder/minister who claimed to have conclusively proven that Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible, as had been traditionally believed by Christians.

He also proclaimed the falsity of the authorship of nearly every Old Testament text: Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Isaiah, etc. Briggs also questioned the authorship of numerous biblical texts that explicitly stated their authors (unlike the Pentateuch, which does not).

He was eventually tried for heresy by the main Presbyterian body in the U.S. and found not guilty. (There were actually two trials....it's complicated. He was found guilty and defrocked at the second one, but there's this whole question of whether the people who tried him then actually had the authority to do that...it's a whole thing). This controversy, and the backlash in the Presbyterian church that it provoked, is what ultimately what led to rather heated debates among American Christians regarding what exactly their attitude towards the Bible should be.
I dunno how that relates to OP, but there you go.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by drumdude »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:05 pm
A guy by the name of Briggs settled the matter of Biblical authenticity back in the 1890's:
If you had to pick a single starting point of this divergence in Protestant belief in America, I would say it should be the Briggs controversy in 1891. Charles Briggs was a professor of theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, Old Testament scholar, and Presbyterian elder/minister who claimed to have conclusively proven that Moses did not write the first five books of the Bible, as had been traditionally believed by Christians.

He also proclaimed the falsity of the authorship of nearly every Old Testament text: Ecclesiastes, Proverbs, Isaiah, etc. Briggs also questioned the authorship of numerous biblical texts that explicitly stated their authors (unlike the Pentateuch, which does not).

He was eventually tried for heresy by the main Presbyterian body in the U.S. and found not guilty. (There were actually two trials....it's complicated. He was found guilty and defrocked at the second one, but there's this whole question of whether the people who tried him then actually had the authority to do that...it's a whole thing). This controversy, and the backlash in the Presbyterian church that it provoked, is what ultimately what led to rather heated debates among American Christians regarding what exactly their attitude towards the Bible should be.
I dunno how that relates to opening post, but there you go.

- Doc

It relates very well. Interesting post, I had never heard of that.

Mormonism has a solution to this problem, there's no need for debates. The prophets, seers, and revelators should know the answers to these very important questions about biblical and Mormon historicity..
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by malkie »

Interpreter wrote:The Book of Mormon ... Nephite record quotes repeatedly from the Brass Plates, another independent Israelite record written in Egyptian and going back to Abraham himself that includes and documents with contemporary accounts the very history and prophecies that are doubted by so many scholars today.

As described by Nephi and his successors, the records in the Brass Plates address the root cause of modern scholarly skepticism directly. The Brass Plates version of Israelite history and prophecies does not depend on an undocumented process wherein oral traditions across many centuries were gradually transcribed and edited as we have in the Hebrew Bible. Rather, the Brass Plates of Nephi contained a collection of written prophecies and histories created and maintained by Abraham himself and his posterity in a Josephite/Manassite scribal school across a full millennium using Egyptian language and script.
I'm really looking forward to Interpreter producing the Brass Plates whose content "does not depend on an undocumented process" of oral tradition. Imagine the effect of the bringing forth of 1000 years of Josephite/Manassite records, written in Egyptian language and script, starting with Abraham!

That's what it would take for me for this quote to make sense. Or am I completely out to lunch here?

Would anything less than the plates themselves, or an extremely well documented history of the plates, support the quote? Is the Book of Mormon sufficient?
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by drumdude »

malkie wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:31 pm
Is the Book of Mormon sufficient?
Interpreter would say yes.
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1478
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by malkie »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:46 pm
malkie wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:31 pm
Is the Book of Mormon sufficient?
Interpreter would say yes.
What would a real historian say? Is it enough to propose that the Brass Plates were (as edited onto the Gold Plates) real, and are acceptable historical evidence for something?
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
drumdude
God
Posts: 5219
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by drumdude »

malkie wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:56 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:46 pm


Interpreter would say yes.
What would a real historian say? Is it enough to propose that the Brass Plates were (as edited onto the Gold Plates) real, and are acceptable historical evidence for something?
This is why Interpreter exists. No legitimate journal would accept it.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5017
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: The Book of Mormon proves the historicity of the Jewish exodus

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:58 pm
malkie wrote:
Sat Jul 09, 2022 11:56 pm

What would a real historian say? Is it enough to propose that the Brass Plates were (as edited onto the Gold Plates) real, and are acceptable historical evidence for something?
This is why Interpreter exists. No legitimate journal would accept it.
And they will never, ever, ever find, whether Jewish, or Christian, or Muslim scholars who will simply accept the Brass Plates as evidence based on the Book of Mormon claiming they are real. I mean how dense and dumbed down IQed has apologetics become?! This is inane.
Post Reply