There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

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drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by drumdude »

It’s important to remember DP is an expert in Islam. Not in logic, theology, Mormon history, ect.

The fact that the Brighamites can’t find a better lead apologist speaks volumes…
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Kishkumen
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

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Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 3:58 pm
Your last point, reverend, is beautifully realistic about the past and empathetic about the future. The church, its members and defenders, have continuously altered specific claims about what is "true" within the broader "truth" umbrella. And will do so in the future. As such, the only true thing is the member's belief in the Church system being true, yesterday, today, and in the future.

This is not very different from atheism, which is fundamentally a belief in the scientific method, a system which changes over time (belief > contradiction > questions > experimentation > new belief >...
Why thank you, Dr Moore. Yes, I don't know about the full scope of atheism. The different camps and ways of thinking about the important philosophical issues are so complicated that one can probably propose any combination of positions on this or that, and someone out there holds that view. For example, Christian atheists are actually a thing.

But what you are sketching out above is fascinating. We know the scientific method, but what is the LDS doctrinal method? Yes, there is a belief, and it is challenged, and that leads to questions, and ultimately to new beliefs, but is there a consistent method whereby those new beliefs are arrived at, or is the process haphazard and/or ad hoc?

Revelation could be called a method, but does revelation not greatly depend on the personality of the person who claims to receive it?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:59 pm
Some of these others would be outreach ministers who are labelled as "anti-Mormon" by the Mopologists, yet these people know there can be no evidence to support a second Bible, nor can the self-evident principles of Biblical Christianity be shown to be in error. You would think someone as inherently bright as DCP would realize that when a self-designated unstoppable force collides with an object rendered immovable by the very same logic, that not a whole lot could ever come of the meeting other than sparks. The only justification I can think of is to release ones anger -- banging on a wall and screaming might be therapeutic.
This is the kind of thing that makes religion frustrating. So many answers, but not a lot to hang your hat on other than a constellation of traditions, practices, and personal experiences. Those things are not negligible, of course. They are in fact some of the most important things cultures have. But weighing the value of one cultural constellation against another is very difficult. Each culture will make extravagant claims about how wonderful and efficacious it is, and most of them are unable to defend their position with anything but a tight internal argument that has been refined by propagandizing and apologetics.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Tom
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Tom »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:30 pm
As expected, Daniel claims we don't "get it."


I could tell you he would say that without him ever reading this thread. It was as much a foregone conclusion as his conviction that all evidence against Mormonism is by definition incorrect.


Sad, and extremely predictable.
Yes, I would not be surprised to see Dr. Peterson repost this 2017 blog post shortly:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... hurch.html
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

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”DP” wrote: I’m hoping that at least some readers will take a breath, calm down, read carefully, and, in certain cases, entertain the hypothesis that I may not be a malevolent, irrational, bigoted fool.
“Please entertain my argument while I childishly a-priori define yours as false.”
Marcus
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Marcus »

Tom wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:08 pm
drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:30 pm
As expected, Daniel claims we don't "get it."


I could tell you he would say that without him ever reading this thread. It was as much a foregone conclusion as his conviction that all evidence against Mormonism is by definition incorrect.


Sad, and extremely predictable.
Yes, I would not be surprised to see Dr. Peterson repost this 2017 blog post shortly:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... hurch.html
oh good grief. here is DCP's attempt at logic from the 'son of' version:
...in answering the question put to me whether, as a convinced believer in Mormonism, I recognize the existence or even the real-world possibility of an ultimately valid disproof of Mormonism, my response must necessarily be No. Should I encounter such a decisive disproof, in recognizing it as such I would instantly and by that very act cease to be a believer in Mormonism.

In other words, what I was saying was tautological, and thus should be uncontroversial. But I don’t think it quite trivial — as, obviously, those who’ve repeatedly put the question to me over the years have also not regarded it as trivial.

Once again, though, I don’t deny, even as a firmly convinced Latter-day Saint, that there are serious-appearing arguments and evidences that a reasonable observer could regard as defeaters of the Mormon paradigm. I don’t even deny that there are arguments and evidences regarding which a reasonable observer (possibly I myself) might judge that believers don’t yet have a fully satisfactory reply. I simply say that, as a firmly convinced Latter-day Saint, I don’t believe that such arguments and evidences are actual defeaters.
so, he is saying that his argument is simply a tautology. As long as he is a believing Mormon he won't accept evidence to the contrary. if for some reason he were to allow himself to encounter contrary evidence, he would instantly cease to be a believing Mormon.

in other words, he must never allow himself to entertain contrary evidence, so that he does not risk instantly becoming a non-believer.


this is the long-winded and utterly pompous version of "i hide my head in the sand so i don't accidently hear a truth."
drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by drumdude »

“DP” wrote: I expect that some readers will want me to share some more serious areas of disagreement with Church leaders and some weightier criticisms. I’m afraid that I’ll have to disappoint them. I’m not going to be lured into public attacks on my church.
This like of reasoning was pretty illuminating as well. He concedes that even if he knows his church is engaged in wrongdoing or propagating falsehoods, he would never publicly admit it because doing so would undermine the organization that he has sworn loyalty to in the temple ceremony.

This is exactly why Mitt Romney was such a problematic presidential candidate. JFK didn’t get his marching orders from the pope. But a Mormon president certainly could be a puppet for the Prophet.
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:17 pm
”DP” wrote: I’m hoping that at least some readers will take a breath, calm down, read carefully, and, in certain cases, entertain the hypothesis that I may not be a malevolent, irrational, bigoted fool.
“Please entertain my argument while I childishly a-priori define yours as false.”
Actually, he has a point. We ought not to look upon him as an irrational bigoted fool, we must needs see him as the Dodo that he is, and I hear he has terrific company in this august category....
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Philo Sofee »

Marcus wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:02 pm
Tom wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 9:08 pm

Yes, I would not be surprised to see Dr. Peterson repost this 2017 blog post shortly:

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danpeters ... hurch.html
oh good grief. here is DCP's attempt at logic from the 'son of' version:
...in answering the question put to me whether, as a convinced believer in Mormonism, I recognize the existence or even the real-world possibility of an ultimately valid disproof of Mormonism, my response must necessarily be No. Should I encounter such a decisive disproof, in recognizing it as such I would instantly and by that very act cease to be a believer in Mormonism.

In other words, what I was saying was tautological, and thus should be uncontroversial. But I don’t think it quite trivial — as, obviously, those who’ve repeatedly put the question to me over the years have also not regarded it as trivial.

Once again, though, I don’t deny, even as a firmly convinced Latter-day Saint, that there are serious-appearing arguments and evidences that a reasonable observer could regard as defeaters of the Mormon paradigm. I don’t even deny that there are arguments and evidences regarding which a reasonable observer (possibly I myself) might judge that believers don’t yet have a fully satisfactory reply. I simply say that, as a firmly convinced Latter-day Saint, I don’t believe that such arguments and evidences are actual defeaters.
so, he is saying that his argument is simply a tautology. As long as he is a believing Mormon he won't accept evidence to the contrary. if for some reason he were to allow himself to encounter contrary evidence, he would instantly cease to be a believing Mormon.

in other words, he must never allow himself to entertain contrary evidence, so that he does not risk instantly becoming a non-believer.


this is the long-winded and utterly pompous version of "i hide my head in the sand so i don't accidently hear a truth."
He is truly reduced to Dodo-hood.
drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by drumdude »

On December 20th, 2006, Daniel C. Peterson posted the following on a Jewish Blog after the Jewish Community was in outrage over Mormons baptizing Simon Wiesenthal:
DP wrote:we Latter-day Saints do, quite unapologetically, insist that Jews "are not worthy enough to receive G-d's eternal blessing" "on their own."
I think Dan gets sadistic enjoyment from inflicting these kind of brutalist statements on anyone who does not share his religious beliefs.

"OOohh I can't wait to see the Jews get a load of this one!"
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