There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

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Dr Moore
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Dr Moore »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:05 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 2:59 am
Have no past LDS prophets provided a testable test of falsehood to followers? Asking for a friend.
Prayer, it always comes down to it. But, and here is the catch... the leadership determines when a prayer is truthful and when it isn't. They say how the Holy Ghost will feel or what it will testify of and testify to, anything else isn't the Holy Ghost. It's a perfect brainwash setup.
I mean, beyond the internal.
Philo Sofee
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:23 am
Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:05 am


Prayer, it always comes down to it. But, and here is the catch... the leadership determines when a prayer is truthful and when it isn't. They say how the Holy Ghost will feel or what it will testify of and testify to, anything else isn't the Holy Ghost. It's a perfect brainwash setup.
I mean, beyond the internal.
Interesting approach... I honestly don't know.
drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by drumdude »

“By their fruits ye shall know”


Which is completely subjective of course.
doubtingthomas
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by doubtingthomas »

Philo Sofee wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:47 am
LOL! Yeah, no one in Jesus' day did either. No one in early Mormonism ever did. In fact, it is best to keep all spiritual information to oneself, but demand others believe you anyway without any evidence. :roll: One very good thing about it, Peterson is right in lock step with today's Apostles who also refuse to verify Jesus as real because it's too sacred. Oh for a Peter or a Paul in Mormonism, but I waste my time digressing...
Talking to your friend is a waste of time.

DT: "How would you scrutinize a spiritual revelation without sharing it? "

I don't indiscriminately make my personal spiritual experiences available for others to paw over them. I don't expect others to do it, either.

DT: "Are your spiritual experiences a feeling or something improbable that happens?"

I don't share such experiences on demand. And I'm very unlikely to share any of them in any degree of detail in a blog post or on the internet.

DT: "On a scale of 1 to 10, how confident are you that the church is true? 10 being "absolute certainty"."

No thanks.

DT: "I suggest you try doing a Devil's advocate experiment."

LOL. There are plenty of advocates for the devil out there already. I doubt that I'm needed.
Okay Doctor, fair enough. How do you know your spiritual experiences are not the result of some cognitive bias? I hope you answer the question because the answer may help someone. See 1st Peter 3:15
Marcus
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Marcus »

from DCP:
I knew from extensive past experience that my assertion would be received by The Usual Suspects with derision and indignation. Why? Because I knew that they would misunderstand it. And why did I know that they would misunderstand it? On the simplest level, of course, because they have a long track record of hostile incomprehension and there was no reason to expect a sudden improvement on their part. Over the course of roughly fifteen obsessively-focused years, they’ve built up an image of me as cartoonishly incompetent, fundamentally dishonest, unashamedly malicious, greedily mercenary, and impervious to even basic logic. And, given that background, absolutely everything I do or say is immediately understood in a manner that is not only consistent with that image but that reinforces and confirms it.
incorrect. Peterson's comments were evaluated with respect to the logic inherent in his statements.
So what did I mean when I wrote that, in a sense and from a certain perspective, a believer’s answer to the question of whether or not there is any valid evidence against the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must ultimately be “No”?

Here are some things — drawn from real online claims asserted about me — that I definitely didn’t mean:

I wasn’t coming out of the closet as a fundamentalist or as a solipsist. I wasn’t acknowledging that my mind is utterly closed or that my beliefs are true “by definition” or declaring that no conceivable evidence can count against them. I didn’t declare my refusal to consider contrary evidence. I wasn’t saying that the Church is true simply because I believe it to be true or that all counter-evidence can simply be dismissed because it’s false “by definition.” I didn’t advocate “confirmation bias” or assert that one should never question one’s assumptions, or that evidence is irrelevant to my predetermined conclusion. I didn’t say that supporting reasons are irrelevant for belief, or that subjective “feelings” are enough. I didn’t dismiss reality. I certainly didn’t appeal to my own “feelings” and I didn’t announce that the truth doesn’t matter.
he is backpedaling. Hard.

Here are his words, quoted by himself:
A few days ago, I posted a blog entry entitled “Do any arguments against the Church have any merit?” My answer to that question was that, in a sense and from a certain perspective, a believer’s answer must be “Ultimately, no.” Here is what I wrote:
Since the Church is ex hypothesi true, there can be no genuine evidence that it is false.
"Since" does NOT mean "If."

He continues for several paragraphs, but it is more of the same. he didn't mean what he said, and it's your fault if you thought he did.

i don't think i've ever seen such a wishy-washy Mormon!
drumdude
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by drumdude »

When his back is really against the wall, he falls back on this idea that he’s only saying something trivial and tautological.
Unfortunately, I'm at the limit of my ability to explain my position. (At least for now.) It seems to me entirely clear, and downright simple (to the point of tautology.) I can think of no way to make it clearer.
If Daniel wanted to say “my belief in Mormonism means I don’t think arguments against Mormonism will ultimately hold true” then he could have easily done that in one sentence. He intentionally added on all the other crap to his tautology to make yet another provocative blog post. A very boring one since he recited it verbatim without mentioning it was copied from 2017. He seems to love retreading the same ground. $20 in blog ad revenue for a few seconds of copy and paste is pretty clever. It only comes at the cost of further staining his legacy.
doubtingthomas
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by doubtingthomas »

drumdude wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 9:28 pm
How do these commenters even know what is being said here if Daniel doesn’t link to the forum?
Look at this! The guy is reading this thread! :lol:

DanielPeterson a minute ago

doubtingthomas: "How do you know your spiritual experiences are not the result of some cognitive bias?"

We all have cognitive biases -- you and I and everyone else -- on all sorts of issues. Ideally, we try to correct for them, we try to be intellectually honest and balanced, and so forth. There's no magic bullet, no simple formula.
doubtingthomas
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by doubtingthomas »

DanielPeterson DT • 14 minutes ago Greetings, by the way, to the folks over at your message board.
Marcus
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by Marcus »

I was not announcing that the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are exempt from examination. I was saying that, on the assumption that those claims are true, there could, per that assumption, be no knock-down proofs that they aren’t. If, to the contrary, I were to say “Yes, I believe that the claims of the Restoration are true but I believe that there are facts that prove it false,” that would seem rather strange, wouldn’t it? What kind of a person believes x while simultaneously holding that there exists decisive proof that not-x?
what a bizarre thinker Peterson is.
doubtingthomas
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Re: There can be no evidence that Mormonism is false

Post by doubtingthomas »


DanielPeterson 7 minutes ago

Not a chance. Thanks, though, for the kind invitation.

I participated there for several years, mostly responding to personal attacks and misrepresentations. My participation accomplished absolutely nothing. Except perhaps exasperating me.

So, one day, I simply walked quietly away. And I've never regretted it, not even for a single minute.

At least one or two of the more reasonable participants assured me that, if I left, my most obsessive critics there would eventually grow bored and forget about me. However, I was confident that that wasn't true and my confidence has been proven justified. In all the years since I left, there hasn't (so far as I'm aware) been a single day when several of the most active threads haven't been about moi.

P.S. From my perspective, I've kept my agreement with "Dr. Moore." In all candor, his recently expressed indignation over my supposed violation of it has caught me entirely by surprise. Feel free to share that with your friends there.

Best wishes to you.
doubtingthomas: "I completely agree. We all have cognitive biases and there is no simple formula, but we have the scientific method and we are capable of critical thinking. Did you scrutinize your own spiritual experiences?"

DanielPeterson 5 minutes ago Yes. And I've continued to do so.
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