Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

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Dr Moore
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Dr Moore »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:39 am
Dr Moore wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 11:48 pm
More bolting the door on unapproved sources. Trying to keep kids and young adults living in fear of reading the CES Letter, or for that matter fully pursuing the footnotes in church essays. Information control a telltale cultish attribute. So glad my kids won’t be subjected to this fear mongering. OMG, research! An earnest search for truth, wherever it may be, should not be source-constrained.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2022/8/1/ ... ung-adults
I would like to hear or read the entire talk. I am no fan of Nelson, but I doubt that he really expects everyone to limit their study of the world to LDS sources alone.
Oh, sure, not as relates to general or vocational learning.
Absolutely so, in terms of answering thorny questions.

Start here:
https://youtu.be/IvS5wDoKoBk?t=6409

"Seek answers with a fervent desire to believe"
"Your sincere questions asked in faith will always lead to greater faith"
"Learn all you can about the gospel and be sure you turn to truth-filled sources for guidance"
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by IHAQ »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:59 pm
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"
Ah yes, the old “doubters are sinning” insinuation. Such a cheap and misleading thing to say. Nelson has no class.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Kishkumen »

IHAQ wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:10 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:59 pm
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"
Ah yes, the old “doubters are sinning” insinuation. Such a cheap and misleading thing to say. Nelson has no class.
Yes, but he did not say anything about sinning, and I think if he had meant to single out sinning as the problem he easily could have and would have. Rather, I think he is pointing to a lot more than just sinning.

I listened to the entire talk, and I didn't hear anything particularly worrying. It sounded like the usual message. Love the doubters. Love those who leave. Just be an example of faith in response to their doubt.

Nothing threatening or offensive to me. I think we can all handle the positive affirmations of believers.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Gabriel »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:59 pm
"Seek answers with a fervent desire to believe"
"Your sincere questions asked in faith will always lead to greater faith"
"Learn all you can about the gospel and be sure you turn to truth-filled sources for guidance"
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"
"Seek answers with a fervent desire to believe"

And ignore all answers which disappoint your fervent desires.

"Your sincere questions asked in faith will always lead to greater faith"

And I, Russell M. Nelson, will not merely tell you, the unwashed hoi polloi, to do as I say and not as I do, but I will lead by example and show you that I have inspired answers to all your sincere questions (and I promise that your faith will be on steroids after I answer them! I am the Lord's prophet, you know!).
Now give me a question, any question...

"Learn all you can about the gospel and be sure you turn to truth-filled sources for guidance"*

*the mileage on some truth-filled sources may vary.

"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"

Be they Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, Son, Daughter, Spouse, Investigator, Scholar, fellow ward member or Church Leader, never actually address their doubts; always assume that there is a hidden defect of character involved in their very act of doubting. We'll have none of this I am the doubter and the doubt and I the hymn the Brahmin sings nonsense in our tribe. We have our own caste system, thank you very much!
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Kishkumen »

"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"

Be they Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, Son, Daughter, Spouse, Investigator, Scholar, fellow ward member or Church Leader, never actually address their doubts; always assume that there is a hidden defect of character involved in their very act of doubting. We'll have none of this I am the doubter and the doubt and I the hymn the Brahmin sings nonsense in our tribe. We have our own caste system, thank you very much!
He did not say “a hidden defect of character.” I get where the inference is coming from, but I think you underestimate his appreciation of just how complicated big life decisions are. Why should we expect him to laud leaving the faith? We should instead expect him to see increased faith as a better answer than loss of faith. We don’t have to agree, but we also don’t need to misconstrue his position as something patently stupid so we can pat ourselves on the back for rejecting his position. Is making him seem dumb really necessary?
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Philo Sofee »

Dr Moore wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:59 pm
Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:39 am


I would like to hear or read the entire talk. I am no fan of Nelson, but I doubt that he really expects everyone to limit their study of the world to LDS sources alone.
Oh, sure, not as relates to general or vocational learning.
Absolutely so, in terms of answering thorny questions.

Start here:
https://youtu.be/IvS5wDoKoBk?t=6409

"Seek answers with a fervent desire to believe"
"Your sincere questions asked in faith will always lead to greater faith"
"Learn all you can about the gospel and be sure you turn to truth-filled sources for guidance"
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"
It is so positively ***weird*** that there has to be a "fervent desire to believe"

Why? Why not just learn truth? How does belief do anything for whether something is valid or not?! Many used to fervently believe that the earth was flat, but so what? It didn't flatten it even a millionth of an inch. This odd and rather quirkily distracting thing about belief is just so silly. And why pursue greater faith or faith at all? Joseph Smith himself said the more KNOWLEDGE you gain here, the better the next life is going to be. He didn't recommend faith but knowledge. Wow is today's Mormonism off in the bushes remaining lost in space!
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by IHAQ »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 8:40 pm
"Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives"

Be they Father, Mother, Sister, Brother, Son, Daughter, Spouse, Investigator, Scholar, fellow ward member or Church Leader, never actually address their doubts; always assume that there is a hidden defect of character involved in their very act of doubting. We'll have none of this I am the doubter and the doubt and I the hymn the Brahmin sings nonsense in our tribe. We have our own caste system, thank you very much!
He did not say “a hidden defect of character.” I get where the inference is coming from, but I think you underestimate his appreciation of just how complicated big life decisions are. Why should we expect him to laud leaving the faith? We should instead expect him to see increased faith as a better answer than loss of faith. We don’t have to agree, but we also don’t need to misconstrue his position as something patently stupid so we can pat ourselves on the back for rejecting his position. Is making him seem dumb really necessary?
I think you underestimate his appreciation of how members will interpret "Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives". He could have simply said “Do not be led astray by those with doubts.” But he didn’t. He had to instead scare/pressure his listeners into associating doubts about church with personal life issues. That way anyone with a genuine doubt will keep it bottled up for fear that Mormon family and friends will assume it’s because they’re sinning or have something amiss in their life, rather than seeing what really generated the doubt. It’s a mindf… and I’m surprised you don’t see it.
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Kishkumen »

I think you underestimate his appreciation of how members will interpret "Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives". He could have simply said “Do not be led astray by those with doubts.” But he didn’t. He had to instead scare/pressure his listeners into associating doubts about church with personal life issues. That way anyone with a genuine doubt will keep it bottled up for fear that Mormon family and friends will assume it’s because they’re sinning or have something amiss in their life, rather than seeing what really generated the doubt. It’s a mindf… and I’m surprised you don’t see it.
And yet there often is something going on in a person’s life that prompts them to reconsider their faith. Often that does not come into the conversation that person has with others about the problems with the LDS Church. I suppose that salient fact could be ignored for the sake of sparing the doubter and placing the faithful in a more vulnerable position; I just don’t expect a church leader to do so. Is “sin” one of those other things going on? By the church’s definition, yes. It is not always, but sometimes it actually is.

I just don’t think it is reasonable to expect church leaders to abandon their own beliefs when they discuss loss of faith. It is not consciously underhanded or malicious when they do this. They are speaking in accordance with what they believe and the doctrine of the church. I consider it an improvement that he leaves room for causes other than sin.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Kishkumen »

t is so positively ***weird*** that there has to be a "fervent desire to believe"

Why? Why not just learn truth? How does belief do anything for whether something is valid or not?! Many used to fervently believe that the earth was flat, but so what? It didn't flatten it even a millionth of an inch. This odd and rather quirkily distracting thing about belief is just so silly. And why pursue greater faith or faith at all? Joseph Smith himself said the more KNOWLEDGE you gain here, the better the next life is going to be. He didn't recommend faith but knowledge. Wow is today's Mormonism off in the bushes remaining lost in space!
“I believe, Lord! Help thou my unbelief!”

Basic Christian stuff.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Nelson: “Don’t pollute [your testimony] with the false philosophies of unbelieving men and women…”

Post by Marcus »

IHAQ wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 7:32 am
I think you underestimate his appreciation of how members will interpret "Do not be led astray by those whose doubts may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives".
exactly. if the point is that people's comments are influenced by things in their lives we cannot see, then ok. every human on the planet has that 'influence,' in everything they talk about.

But he specifically did NOT say 'Do not be led astray by those whose doubts [or beliefs] may be fed by things you cannot see in their lives". He specified that it is those who disagree with the beliefs HE is preaching that one should be wary of.

And consider the language-- "led astray" by those who are "fed by things you cannot see." It is obvious he is talking about "sin." That's what leads one "astray." In the context of Nelson's previous speeches, to argue he is saying doubters doubt because of sin --but also other non-sin related things!-- is too simplistic.

He could have simply said “Do not be led astray by those with doubts.” But he didn’t. He had to instead scare/pressure his listeners into associating doubts about church with personal life issues. That way anyone with a genuine doubt will keep it bottled up for fear that Mormon family and friends will assume it’s because they’re sinning or have something amiss in their life, rather than seeing what really generated the doubt. It’s a mindf…..
no argument there.
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