Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

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Kishkumen
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

Post by Kishkumen »

I wasn't attacking Peterson or the church. I was simply trying to get him to think a little bit. I succeed, Peterson said he was "Reflecting on" "assertions". I just have no idea what "assertions" he is talking about.
I am not picking a fight. I’m just resonating with Dr Moore’s personal experience.
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

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Rivendale wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:32 pm
Doctor Scratch wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:53 pm
He gave an interview on a podcast, if memory serves--it may have been the one where Dan Wotherspoon was the interviewer--where he *did* related a "spiritual experience." He said that one of his kids had a piece of meat stuck in their throat, and so he either said a prayer or gave the kid a priesthood blessing and voila! The piece of meat was dislodged! He's publicly discussed this, so I don't understand why he's reluctant to go into this sort of thing, unless he's concerned about getting made fun of or something.
That interview is here and clipped at the appropriate time where Daniel describes a miraculous event involving his son after a priesthood blessing. https://youtu.be/CT68sIf4gAw?t=3867. ETA: This could be easily tested at all the hospitals around the world. Maybe it would discount the study on intercessory prayer. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/
Conclusions: Intercessory prayer itself had no effect on complication-free recovery from CABG, but certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications.

I’m not sure a formal priesthood blessing is the right strategy in the middle of a very time sensitive emergency like choking or heart attack. Time without oxygen is time brain cells are dying.

I hope he said some sort of informal prayer in his head while doing the actions we all would in that kind of emergency.
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

Post by Rivendale »

drumdude wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:45 pm
Rivendale wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:32 pm


That interview is here and clipped at the appropriate time where Daniel describes a miraculous event involving his son after a priesthood blessing. https://youtu.be/CT68sIf4gAw?t=3867. ETA: This could be easily tested at all the hospitals around the world. Maybe it would discount the study on intercessory prayer. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16569567/


I’m not sure a formal priesthood blessing is the right strategy in the middle of a very time sensitive emergency like choking or heart attack. Time without oxygen is time brain cells are dying.

I hope he said some sort of informal prayer in his head while doing the actions we all would in that kind of emergency.
You know the first thing they did was try to have him sleep it off. ETA. Dan was possessed and can see the future. Two dowsers at work. https://youtu.be/gylaYQ04PIk?t=247 They missed out on Randy's million dollar prize.
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

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Yes, and like we have. both talked about (together), Joseph Smith very well did tap into some of the themes of the ancient mysteries, and not just some of the fringe views either... It is problematic when we see Smith taking such a literal historical view of it which I have most come out against, not Joseph Smith's ideas per se. I am reading in Algis Uzdavinys' research and find it overwhelmingly parallel to some of Smith's theology. I suspect I will find more when my book Method Infinite arrives (hopefully today) dealing with Free Masonry and the endowment.

I will confess, sometimes Smith appears like such a complete dunderhead, and other times he is exalting my spirit to the highest celestial regions of desire. He is an enigma, which is what makes looking into him so dadgum fascinating! One major hurdle which I simply see no point in trying to get over is the modern Mormon interpretations of the Prophet. I simply see so much of their view as missing the mark concerning him.

This is why Dr. Peterson takes so much flack around here. He simply takes the all Modern Mormon view of Smith and mocks anyone else who comes out with differing conclusions/research/evidence than what he interprets in lock step with the church'a interpretation of Smith and the scriptures he imagines is true. And he knows it, and glories in it, weirdly enough. But I do believe at least both you and I have different takes on it and they are exactly as grand and exalting and exciting as anything Mormonism has interpreted. But then we get stomped on for even caring to simply discuss this. "NO! If it isn't interpreted correctly (as we Brethren teach) then it is wrong, the Holy Ghost will leave you to the wiles of Satan, and you shall apostatize." It is that spirit of thinking which I can no longer stomach. There is precious little actual friendly discussion and bantering and learning anymore, just read, believe, and follow the church approved materials, and we all know that means it continues to stay in the 5th grade level of spirituality, rather than advancing to collegiate level spirituality and exaltation.

I think what sent me over the edge out of apologetics is when they seemed to believe they simply have to confirm absolutely everything Joseph Smith said as a literal historical occurring event. That, to me, seems too extremely one sided, and lop sided. It is as worthless as going extreme the other direction of imagining that everything he taught, said, and believed was only to be considered as spiritual. Neither view actually works, and sure, when the are pushed Smith takes the brunt of the criticism. I have given him a fair share of that myself.

But I am moving more in a direction of exploring his overall spiritual views and the themes which appear to me to be all consuming for humans throughout the concourses of time. Joseph Smith does, to me at least, appear to have tapped into a source of thought (reality?) which has been known and believed by many other cultures throughout the millenia. It's what makes the mysteries so enjoyable to look into.
Great post, Philo! Yes, there is a lot to chew on in study of ancient mysteries, the influence of Greek philosophy on Western spirituality, etc. Joseph Smith seems to have hit on some of these things and tried to restore them to Western Christianity. In some ways he did a better job than his peers, in other ways he did worse. Apologists for the LDS Church are obligated to make the current official interpretation of Smith the line they toe. That makes their discourse exasperating if not utterly ludicrous. It’s the burden current LDSism places upon them. The situation may get better, however, as the usual way of doing apologetics has failed so catastrophically. I see light on the horizon, but I do not see hope for what you and I are interested in.
"Stubborn audacity is the last refuge of guilt." ~ Samuel Johnson
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

Post by Philo Sofee »

Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:30 pm
Yes, and like we have. both talked about (together), Joseph Smith very well did tap into some of the themes of the ancient mysteries, and not just some of the fringe views either... It is problematic when we see Smith taking such a literal historical view of it which I have most come out against, not Joseph Smith's ideas per se. I am reading in Algis Uzdavinys' research and find it overwhelmingly parallel to some of Smith's theology. I suspect I will find more when my book Method Infinite arrives (hopefully today) dealing with Free Masonry and the endowment.

I will confess, sometimes Smith appears like such a complete dunderhead, and other times he is exalting my spirit to the highest celestial regions of desire. He is an enigma, which is what makes looking into him so dadgum fascinating! One major hurdle which I simply see no point in trying to get over is the modern Mormon interpretations of the Prophet. I simply see so much of their view as missing the mark concerning him.

This is why Dr. Peterson takes so much flack around here. He simply takes the all Modern Mormon view of Smith and mocks anyone else who comes out with differing conclusions/research/evidence than what he interprets in lock step with the church'a interpretation of Smith and the scriptures he imagines is true. And he knows it, and glories in it, weirdly enough. But I do believe at least both you and I have different takes on it and they are exactly as grand and exalting and exciting as anything Mormonism has interpreted. But then we get stomped on for even caring to simply discuss this. "NO! If it isn't interpreted correctly (as we Brethren teach) then it is wrong, the Holy Ghost will leave you to the wiles of Satan, and you shall apostatize." It is that spirit of thinking which I can no longer stomach. There is precious little actual friendly discussion and bantering and learning anymore, just read, believe, and follow the church approved materials, and we all know that means it continues to stay in the 5th grade level of spirituality, rather than advancing to collegiate level spirituality and exaltation.

I think what sent me over the edge out of apologetics is when they seemed to believe they simply have to confirm absolutely everything Joseph Smith said as a literal historical occurring event. That, to me, seems too extremely one sided, and lop sided. It is as worthless as going extreme the other direction of imagining that everything he taught, said, and believed was only to be considered as spiritual. Neither view actually works, and sure, when the are pushed Smith takes the brunt of the criticism. I have given him a fair share of that myself.

But I am moving more in a direction of exploring his overall spiritual views and the themes which appear to me to be all consuming for humans throughout the concourses of time. Joseph Smith does, to me at least, appear to have tapped into a source of thought (reality?) which has been known and believed by many other cultures throughout the millenia. It's what makes the mysteries so enjoyable to look into.
Great post, Philo! Yes, there is a lot to chew on in study of ancient mysteries, the influence of Greek philosophy on Western spirituality, etc. Joseph Smith seems to have hit on some of these things and tried to restore them to Western Christianity. In some ways he did a better job than his peers, in other ways he did worse. Apologists for the LDS Church are obligated to make the current official interpretation of Smith the line they toe. That makes their discourse exasperating if not utterly ludicrous. It’s the burden current LDSism places upon them. The situation may get better, however, as the usual way of doing apologetics has failed so catastrophically. I see light on the horizon, but I do not see hope for what you and I are interested in.
Well, for Pete's sake ya skeptic! :lol:
I just received the book we've all been waiting for for 20 years, Bruno, Swick, Literski's book on Freemasonry and Mormonism, Method Infinite, (so far it is crisp, clean, and excellent, but I just started) and perhaps there is hope because they certainly have broken new ground for a more robust, accurate, and realistic look at the ancient mysteries from both fronts, Mormonism's and Freemasonry's views. Albert Pike claimed Masonry got her mysteries from Hermeticism which is really, truly, ENCOURAGING for those of us who are looking into these themes, so chin up bubba, we gotta lotta work to do, but we have precedents which we can draw from... Algis Uzdavinys has numerous publications ( Philosophy & Theurgy in Late Antiquity; Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth; The Golden Chain: An Anthology of Pythagorean and Platonic Philosophy; Orpheus and the Roots of Platonism; Ascent to Heaven In Islamic and Jewish Mysticism - all of which I am so blessed to own since I blew this months dough on them all instead of paying Tithing :lol: ) showing the connections, overall themes of the mysteries throughout antiquity, and Hermeticism is one of the main players connecting them all, with (I would claim) Mithraism right in there with it all, especially, and most importantly on the major theme of them all dating far into hoary antiquity, The descent and ascension of mankind. Joseph Smith was tapping into that in some rather off ways on some occasions, and in other ways, though modern LDSism stupidly has buried it, directly on in other ways, some of which apparent Method Infinite elaborates upon. I can't wait to read the book! I am only through the Preface and part of chapter 1.
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

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Kishkumen wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 2:41 pm
Dr. Shades wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 12:56 pm
Can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit?
Do you believe that it can’t or is this just a rhetorical question?
I'm just reminding readers of what Jesus Himself is reported to have said regarding this issue in Matthew 7:16-18 (emphasis added):

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


So, to those who think that Joseph Smith was a corrupt scoundrel but simultaneously choose to believe that he did a lot of good for the world, I would remind them that they must also disagree with Jesus Christ's teaching on that subject. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with Jesus if you don't believe in Him, of course, but if you do, then think twice about the first paradigm and remind yourself of the rampant theft of the widows' mite, the instillation of guilt over masturbation, the campaigns against homosexual marriage, the countless lives destroyed by polygamy, etc.

I'm sure Bernie Madoff's earliest investors would say that he did a great deal of good, but in which direction do the scales tip?
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

Post by Kishkumen »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:17 pm
I'm just reminding readers of what Jesus Himself is reported to have said regarding this issue in Matthew 7:16-18 (emphasis added):

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.


So, to those who think that Joseph Smith was a corrupt scoundrel but simultaneously choose to believe that he did a lot of good for the world, I would remind them that they must also disagree with Jesus Christ's teaching on that subject. Nothing wrong with disagreeing with Jesus if you don't believe in Him, of course, but if you do, then think twice about the first paradigm and remind yourself of the rampant theft of the widows' mite, the instillation of guilt over masturbation, the campaigns against homosexual marriage, the countless lives destroyed by polygamy, etc.

I'm sure Bernie Madoff's earliest investors would say that he did a great deal of good, but in which direction do the scales tip?
Yes, I am familiar with Jesus' teachings using the fruit tree metaphor. Of course, there is the practical issue of how in the real world most people are a mixed bag. They are not completely good or completely corrupt. Heavens, some people think I am completely corrupt, but then there are perhaps more fair or generous judges who see me as a flawed human being. Those who see a corrupt scoundrel in Joseph Smith are unlikely to believe he did much if any good in the world, but I don't think those people are reasonable critics.

The question here, however, is not whether one agrees with Jesus' teachings or not, but what the meaning and applicability of Jesus' teaching are.
"Stubborn audacity is the last refuge of guilt." ~ Samuel Johnson
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Re: Dr. Peterson doubting Spiritual Experiences?

Post by drumdude »

That’s probably why Joseph put the concept of universal salvation into Mormon theology. After a lifetime of lying, cheating, swindling. So he could get even himself into heaven!

Jesus’ teachings in the New Testament are so vague and metaphorical that you can send everyone to hell or no one to hell depending on your interpretation.
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