Kishkumen wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:30 pm
Yes, and like we have. both talked about (together), Joseph Smith very well did tap into some of the themes of the ancient mysteries, and not just some of the fringe views either... It is problematic when we see Smith taking such a literal historical view of it which I have most come out against, not Joseph Smith's ideas per se. I am reading in Algis Uzdavinys' research and find it overwhelmingly parallel to some of Smith's theology. I suspect I will find more when my book Method Infinite arrives (hopefully today) dealing with Free Masonry and the endowment.
I will confess, sometimes Smith appears like such a complete dunderhead, and other times he is exalting my spirit to the highest celestial regions of desire. He is an enigma, which is what makes looking into him so dadgum fascinating! One major hurdle which I simply see no point in trying to get over is the modern Mormon interpretations of the Prophet. I simply see so much of their view as missing the mark concerning him.
This is why Dr. Peterson takes so much flack around here. He simply takes the all Modern Mormon view of Smith and mocks anyone else who comes out with differing conclusions/research/evidence than what he interprets in lock step with the church'a interpretation of Smith and the scriptures he imagines is true. And he knows it, and glories in it, weirdly enough. But I do believe at least both you and I have different takes on it and they are exactly as grand and exalting and exciting as anything Mormonism has interpreted. But then we get stomped on for even caring to simply discuss this. "NO! If it isn't interpreted correctly (as we Brethren teach) then it is wrong, the Holy Ghost will leave you to the wiles of Satan, and you shall apostatize." It is that spirit of thinking which I can no longer stomach. There is precious little actual friendly discussion and bantering and learning anymore, just read, believe, and follow the church approved materials, and we all know that means it continues to stay in the 5th grade level of spirituality, rather than advancing to collegiate level spirituality and exaltation.
I think what sent me over the edge out of apologetics is when they seemed to believe they simply have to confirm absolutely everything Joseph Smith said as a literal historical occurring event. That, to me, seems too extremely one sided, and lop sided. It is as worthless as going extreme the other direction of imagining that everything he taught, said, and believed was only to be considered as spiritual. Neither view actually works, and sure, when the are pushed Smith takes the brunt of the criticism. I have given him a fair share of that myself.
But I am moving more in a direction of exploring his overall spiritual views and the themes which appear to me to be all consuming for humans throughout the concourses of time. Joseph Smith does, to me at least, appear to have tapped into a source of thought (reality?) which has been known and believed by many other cultures throughout the millenia. It's what makes the mysteries so enjoyable to look into.
Great post, Philo! Yes, there is a lot to chew on in study of ancient mysteries, the influence of Greek philosophy on Western spirituality, etc. Joseph Smith seems to have hit on some of these things and tried to restore them to Western Christianity. In some ways he did a better job than his peers, in other ways he did worse. Apologists for the LDS Church are obligated to make the current official interpretation of Smith the line they toe. That makes their discourse exasperating if not utterly ludicrous. It’s the burden current LDSism places upon them. The situation may get better, however, as the usual way of doing apologetics has failed so catastrophically. I see light on the horizon, but I do not see hope for what you and I are interested in.
Well, for Pete's sake ya skeptic!
I just received the book we've all been waiting for for 20 years, Bruno, Swick, Literski's book on Freemasonry and Mormonism,
Method Infinite, (so far it is crisp, clean, and excellent, but I just started) and perhaps there is hope because they certainly have broken new ground for a more robust, accurate, and realistic look at the ancient mysteries from
both fronts, Mormonism's and Freemasonry's views. Albert Pike claimed Masonry got her mysteries from Hermeticism which is really, truly, ENCOURAGING for those of us who are looking into these themes, so chin up bubba, we gotta lotta work to do, but we have precedents which we can draw from... Algis Uzdavinys has numerous publications ( Philosophy & Theurgy in Late Antiquity; Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth; The Golden Chain: An Anthology of Pythagorean and Platonic Philosophy; Orpheus and the Roots of Platonism; Ascent to Heaven In Islamic and Jewish Mysticism - all of which I am so blessed to own since I blew this months dough on them all instead of paying Tithing
) showing the connections, overall themes of the mysteries throughout antiquity, and Hermeticism is one of the main players connecting them all, with (I would claim) Mithraism right in there with it all, especially, and most importantly on
the major theme of them all dating far into hoary antiquity,
The descent and ascension of mankind. Joseph Smith was tapping into that in some rather off ways on some occasions, and in other ways, though modern LDSism stupidly has buried it, directly on in other ways, some of which apparent
Method Infinite elaborates upon. I can't wait to read the book! I am only through the Preface and part of chapter 1.