2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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Res Ipsa
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

Post by Res Ipsa »

huckelberry wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:39 pm
please help, what is a Mandela effect and what does lgbtq have to do with Sodom and Gemorah?
Here’s a history of the Mandela Effect: https://mandelaeffect.com/what-is-the-mandela-effect/
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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drumdude wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:01 pm
Tarik LaCour gave an excellent talk outlining what he thinks are the best arguments for atheism, and the LDS response.

He didn’t go the Dan Peterson role and attack Christopher Hitchens’ book, instead Tarik gave a full honest account of the best atheism philosophers and their position.

He focused on two main points, the problem of evil and the problem of divine hiddenness.

The problem of evil is that a perfectly good and all powerful creator God wouldn’t allow moral and natural evil to exist. Tarik correctly states that Mormon God is so foreign, so limited, so different from the traditional Judeo-Christian God that it acts as an out for this problem. God may not have even created our spirits, so he isn’t responsible for the problem of evil.

He used a similar argument for divine hiddenness.

I think it’s great to have a Mormon acknowledge just how different the Mormon concept of God is. I don’t think many Mormons believe it though. I think many Mormons in everyday life believe God is more like the traditional Christian God, and not so limited. Also, Mormon apologists need to stop using traditional Christian apologetics which assume Mormon God is identical to the standard Christian God.
But unfortunately, some Mormon apologists probably use the Mormon concept of God as proof that the church is true.

I haven't heard of divine hiddenness before, but I can guess what it is. There was no divine hiddenness in ancient times :lol:
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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drumdude wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:01 pm
Tarik LaCour gave an excellent talk outlining what he thinks are the best arguments for atheism, and the LDS response.
Tarik is legit, like most theists I know in philosophy of religion. Spirited disagreement done in a cordial and friendly fashion on a subject that can really challenge you, it can be edifying for everyone involved (as it should be). I admire his desire to see that replicated in apologetics, but bringing that to a FAIR Conference is sort of like trying to sell contact lenses to the blind.


Also the thread topic:
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:24 am
I haven't heard of divine hiddenness before, but I can guess what it is. There was no divine hiddenness in ancient times :lol:
You've got the spirit of it. This is the book that started it all and it has become a thriving topic in the field comparable to Plantinga's ELAAN.

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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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Gadianton wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:26 pm
Wow, Tarik must check both boxes that nobody in the conference checked so far. Pretty cool.

It's tempting to go that route, just say Mormonism doesn't meet classical definitions of God etc., it's a pretty high cost though. For one, the Mormon God can't solve any philosophical problems that God is credited to solving. We still have to wonder what the meaning of it all is, why anything exists, who created God, and etc., which means DCP can't use God (Mormon God) in the way he almost always does on his blog as the fixer of meaning.

Many Mormons will be fine with this as they view Mormonism as a big space opera, Glen Larson really knew how to get mileage out of his upbringing.
Tarik, in a previous FAIR conference, expressed an affinity for the project of natural theology. I know his area of interest was the philosophy of mind and I seem to recall he took a position favoring eliminative materialism too.

How all of this comes together as a project that makes Mormonism viable, I don’t know. It's a strategy I’ve never really considered before, but if it ever comes to fruition, it’ll be a hell of a lot better than anything Blake Ostler has put out.
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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drumdude wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:01 pm
Tarik LaCour gave an excellent talk outlining what he thinks are the best arguments for atheism, and the LDS response.

He didn’t go the Dan Peterson role and attack Christopher Hitchens’ book, instead Tarik gave a full honest account of the best atheism philosophers and their position.

He focused on two main points, the problem of evil and the problem of divine hiddenness.

The problem of evil is that a perfectly good and all powerful creator God wouldn’t allow moral and natural evil to exist. Tarik correctly states that Mormon God is so foreign, so limited, so different from the traditional Judeo-Christian God that it acts as an out for this problem. God may not have even created our spirits, so he isn’t responsible for the problem of evil.

He used a similar argument for divine hiddenness.

I think it’s great to have a Mormon acknowledge just how different the Mormon concept of God is. I don’t think many Mormons believe it though. I think many Mormons in everyday life believe God is more like the traditional Christian God, and not so limited. Also, Mormon apologists need to stop using traditional Christian apologetics which assume Mormon God is identical to the standard Christian God.
Sounds like an interesting and evenhanded presentation.
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:24 am
I haven't heard of divine hiddenness before, but I can guess what it is. There was no divine hiddenness in ancient times :lol:
It might relate to the physical distance of God living on the Kolobian ringworld in a far distant galaxy and not having a fleet of starships that can easily span that distance. Couple that with an immense harem of sister-wives, and His time is otherwise occupied.
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

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DrStakhanovite wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:48 am
Tarik, in a previous FAIR conference, expressed an affinity for the project of natural theology. I know his area of interest was the philosophy of mind and I seem to recall he took a position favoring eliminative materialism too.

How all of this comes together as a project that makes Mormonism viable, I don’t know. It's a strategy I’ve never really considered before, but if it ever comes to fruition, it’ll be a hell of a lot better than anything Blake Ostler has put out.
I have seen him post a little about this on Facebook. It was surprising to see someone take this tack. We’ll see where this goes! I am skeptical, but it will be fun to watch.
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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

Post by doubtingthomas »

DrStakhanovite wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:24 am
doubtingthomas wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:24 am
I haven't heard of divine hiddenness before, but I can guess what it is. There was no divine hiddenness in ancient times :lol:
You've got the spirit of it. This is the book that started it all and it has become a thriving topic in the field comparable to Plantinga's ELAAN.

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Re: 2022 Fair Conference is steaming now

Post by Tom »

I listened to Gary Lawrence's mystifying presentation on "How Comfortable Conversations About the Gift of Agency Lead to Interest in the Gospel." (Incidentally, oddly enough, "Peter Pan" himself was sitting next to me during the presentation.)

One of Lawrence's slides, titled "Intellectual Silliness," quoted part of an abstract of an academic paper (color on Lawrence's slide):
Glaciers are key icons of climate change and global environmental change. However, the relationships among gender, science, and glaciers – particularly related to epistemological questions about the production of glaciological knowledge – remain understudied. This paper thus proposes a feminist glaciology framework.... Merging feminist postcolonial science studies and feminist political ecology, the feminist glaciology framework generates robust analysis of gender, power, and epistemologies in dynamic social-ecological systems, thereby leading to more just and equitable science and human-ice interactions.
Next slide:
The World Health Organization recently announced it will be updating its gender mainstreaming manual "in light of new scientific evidence and conceptual progress." The guidance addresses how gender inequality affects health outcomes. Going forward, it will place an emphasis on "intersectionality," "equity," and the idea that gender is "a continuum" and biological sex is "not limited to male or female."
The slide did not cite a source (see here).

Next slide:
Fancy Speak

A recession is negative economic growth.
The homeless are involuntarily undomiciled.
The unemployed are economically marginalized.
An environmental hygienist is a janitor.
And used cars are now pre-owned vehicles.
Then:
Soften the Bad

Steal: Filch, pinch, lift
Murder: Hit, snuff, zap
Adultery: Cheat, step out, open relationship
Hack: Was a stash, hit, attack on a computer. Now a tip, suggestion, a new piece of knowledge
Wicked: Not a positive intensifier such as wicked good
Sick: Can now mean really amazing
Then:
Erase Stigmas

Printing money -> monetizing the debt -> quantitative easing
Dole -> welfare -> relief -> assistance -> entitlement
Whores -> prostitutes -> streetwalkers -> ladies of the night -> escorts
I wonder if Scott Gordon convinced Lawrence not to include "perversion" and "alternative lifestyle" on this slide. See here.

Next slide:
The Point

When blurring the meaning of words robs concepts of clarity, people being [sic] to doubt their undergirding institutions, their own sense of self, and even their traditional values -- gender, marriage, country, religion.
He then quoted Milton Friedman and Calvin Coolidge on the dangers of centralization. A slide titled "U.S. Constitution" read:
The people are sovereign and government as servant is sacrosanct. To control the lust for power, we separate power, divide power, and enumerate the specific powers government may exercise.
A slide titled "The Danger to Our Agency" quoted D&C 121:39 ("We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men...").

The next slide showed a photo of a huge stack of paper. Lawrence noted the Code of Federal Regulations runs 185,000 pages and then discussed a slide indicating that 70 percent of Gen Z thinks that government should do more to solve problems while 39 percent of the Silent Generation takes that position. A slide titled "Socialism" featured a photo of a bunch of sheep.

Lawrence contrasted his notion of the principle of "Equal Opportunity" with his notion of the principle of "Equal Outcome":
Equal Opportunity

All of God's children have had or will have the opportunity to follow the Savior, keep His commandments, and return to dwell in Their presence forever.
Equal Outcome

Socialism advocates equal distribution of wealth through state control of the means of production, central planning, and wage and price controls.

Satan agitates for equality of outcomes precisely because it destroys motivation, justice and agency.

Socialism is the Anti-Agency.
He ran through several slides featuring "Satan's Whoppers":
Nephi warned that "there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a fit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God."

Moroni prophesied that "there shall be many who will say, Do this, or do that, and it mattereth not, for the Lord will uphold such at the last day."

Korihor, the antichrist, taught that "every man fared in this life according to the management of the creature; therefore every man prospered according to his genius, and that every man conquered according to his strength; and whatsoever a man did was no crime."

Another Book of Mormon villain, Nehor, implied there would be no consequences to actions, no matter number or severity: "And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life."
He mentioned the number of surveillance cameras in China, and told a story about visiting Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union to teach people about democracy. He and others taught about campaigning in a free setting. Attendees were divided into groups and were told to consider the question, "How would you build a coalition of people to vote for your candidate? Who do you want?" Apparently every group wanted waiters to be the number one group in their coalition because waiters "listen in on all the conversations and they know the dirt about everybody."

I am not making this up.
Last edited by Tom on Fri Aug 05, 2022 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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