No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

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Dwight
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Dwight »

I always understood OD as you had to really know things, not just felt it by the spirit. You would most likely be quite high up in the ranks and it was thus an incentive to not jump once you see how the sausage gets made. I didn't know, or was only vaguely aware, of the second anointing at the time. It seems the second anointing is the carrot and outer darkness is the stick, but the promises of the second anointing do seem to nullify the threat of OD, but maybe OD trumps if you deny the holy ghost after your 2nd anointing and thus it all can make sense.

but yeah I do think exmos and members need to let off of thinking OD is an easy thing to end up with in Mormon theology. At least to me it was always presented as something rare.
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:30 pm
I don't know what the context is here, but any ex-mo who believes that they are a candidate for Son of Perdition is mistaken.
Agreed.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Kishkumen
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

Dwight wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:48 am
I always understood OD as you had to really know things, not just felt it by the spirit. You would most likely be quite high up in the ranks and it was thus an incentive to not jump once you see how the sausage gets made. I didn't know, or was only vaguely aware, of the second anointing at the time. It seems the second anointing is the carrot and outer darkness is the stick, but the promises of the second anointing do seem to nullify the threat of OD, but maybe OD trumps if you deny the holy ghost after your 2nd anointing and thus it all can make sense.

but yeah I do think exmos and members need to let off of thinking OD is an easy thing to end up with in Mormon theology. At least to me it was always presented as something rare.
That is an interesting tension you point out: the SA guarantees exaltation, but it also makes one eligible for OD? I need to think about that a little more.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
IHAQ
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by IHAQ »

For reference…
Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:34–35; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:38; 88:24, 32).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Moksha »

IHAQ wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:19 pm
For reference…
Those who are not redeemed by the Atonement are in outer darkness, which is the dwelling place of the devil, his angels, and the sons of perdition (see Doctrine and Covenants 29:36–38; 76:28–33). Sons of perdition are those who receive “no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame” (Doctrine and Covenants 76:34–35; see also Doctrine and Covenants 76:31–33, 36–37). Such individuals will not inherit a place in any kingdom of glory; for them the conditions of hell remain (see Doctrine and Covenants 76:38; 88:24, 32).
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/stu ... l?lang=eng
Whoever made this stuff up has a real angry bent. Those who believe it have been suckered big time. If you really want to believe, why not put your faith in a loving and benevolent God?
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dastardly stem
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by dastardly stem »

Outer Darkness was always a funny thing to me. Once someone presses on the concept, suddenly the explanation works its way all the way down to no one could possibly go to Outer Darkness. It started as a place for everyone who heard the message and decided against it, to a place reserved only for those who couldn't possibly experience anything near what would be required before they rejected Jesus. If former believers, those who once partook of the great saving ordinances and special insights, aren't candidates who is? "only those who saw Jesus and really knew the Spirit of God and rejected them both because they were all pissed and hated everything and everyone". Show me one person who could possibly fit the bill (pun intended).
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― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Kishkumen »

dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:41 pm
Outer Darkness was always a funny thing to me. Once someone presses on the concept, suddenly the explanation works its way all the way down to no one could possibly go to Outer Darkness. It started as a place for everyone who heard the message and decided against it, to a place reserved only for those who couldn't possibly experience anything near what would be required before they rejected Jesus. If former believers, those who once partook of the great saving ordinances and special insights, aren't candidates who is? "only those who saw Jesus and really knew the Spirit of God and rejected them both because they were all pissed and hated everything and everyone". Show me one person who could possibly fit the bill (pun intended).
Yeah, I think the whole thing is so poorly defined that too much is left open to interpretation. Anyone who wants to argue that an ex-Mo who had been endowed, returned missionary, etc., would surely be a son of perdition after leaving the LDS Church, because, hey, what's to stop them from jumping to that conclusion, and people in our culture seem to want to raise the bogeyman of hell and the devil at the first possible opportunity. They are, well, more than a little punitive.

But, really, having listened to Bill Reel for some hours, I rather get the impression that he is confused about Mormonism more than he is someone who has received the Holy Spirit and then denied it or rejected Christ. And when I say confused, I am not questioning his knowledge of Mormonism or his intelligence. I am rejecting the idea that anyone who simply does not believe in Mormonism anymore could be a candidate for outer darkness. In Mormon terms, such a person is confused, not a son of perdition.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by dastardly stem »

Kishkumen wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:12 pm
Yeah, I think the whole thing is so poorly defined that too much is left open to interpretation. Anyone who wants to argue that an ex-Mo who had been endowed, returned missionary, etc., would surely be a son of perdition after leaving the LDS Church, because, hey, what's to stop them from jumping to that conclusion, and people in our culture seem to want to raise the bogeyman of hell and the devil at the first possible opportunity. They are, well, more than a little punitive.

But, really, having listened to Bill Reel for some hours, I rather get the impression that he is confused about Mormonism more than he is someone who has received the Holy Spirit and then denied it or rejected Christ. And when I say confused, I am not questioning his knowledge of Mormonism or his intelligence. I am rejecting the idea that anyone who simply does not believe in Mormonism anymore could be a candidate for outer darkness. In Mormon terms, such a person is confused, not a son of perdition.
To that point it's mysterious enough to warrant much confusion from everyone on the topic. I'd maintain it was initially conceived of for anyone who rejected the gospel and only later became a place that nearly no one could possibly get consigned to (You have to really know God and his spirit and then while in that place of knowledge you'd have to tell them to f-off). "ok. Well, that fits precisely no one, ever.."

The Mormon after-world ideas worried me a great deal as a believer. I never could feel like I'd be celestial but even if I were, it felt completely arbitrary to put me in a celestial place and anyone else should be considered lesser. And if someone I cared about ended up in a lower place it felt appropriate to think I should trade places with them--since hell to me would be defined as putting me on a pedestal over others. The Celesital world, as it was called, sounded like the real hell.

They'd say, "Oh, no, everyone ends up where they want...essentially." That sounded silly. And then there are murderers or rapists in the telestial but somehow there was someone worse than that going off to live with satan? "oh yeah..it's really bad to reject God's spirit. That's the worse sin, so unforgivable".

"why, exactly?"

And yet, somehow Jesus is so finicky he'll consider any believer as so bad he never knew them? After pleading how much they tried to do well for him, he coldly would tell them, "I never knew you" and then he'd spit 'em out? All because, what, they're a hypocrite? "well, you did build your house on sand, after all, and if you don't believe anymore your foundation must have been built on sand." Sounds like a good reason to hate someone to me.

So which is it, God hates believers so badly, if they build their house on sand, that they are completely rejected by him? or Only very few who hates anything good, hates everyone and themselves, and God and love and anything...I mean only those will be living with Satan? Or maybe we seriously consider Mormons ought to think God never knew many a believer? ANd if he hates any believer what to make of any non-believer? There's plenty of room to be confused about.

Considering all the mixed messages I could see Mormons believing anyone who leaves the Church are Sons of Perdition, and I believe I've met a few, and I could see Mormons believing that basically no one could possibly be a son of Perdition (you have to really know something that no one could possibly know).

Surely I don't know what Bill's saying so I'm missing context. But it's a messy teaching-if that's what he's saying, I'd agree.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

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dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:39 pm

To that point it's mysterious enough to warrant much confusion from everyone on the topic. I'd maintain it was initially conceived of for anyone who rejected the gospel and only later became a place that nearly no one could possibly get consigned to (You have to really know God and his spirit and then while in that place of knowledge you'd have to tell them to f-off). "ok. Well, that fits precisely no one, ever.."

This has been my go to argument for free will and Divine Hiddenness. That portion of heaven allegedly knew god and his powers and still rebelled. There shouldn't be any reason that miracles shouldn't be happening to everyone. Unless ,god forbid, there isn't a supernatural world.
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Dr Moore
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Re: No Outer Darkness for Bill Reel

Post by Dr Moore »

I’ve read that Joseph was a raging Universalist in the early days of Mormonism. So I’m wondering, was Outer Darkness a later invention to strike fear in his followers who left or otherwise “betrayed” loyalty to him?
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