Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Rivendale
God
Posts: 1152
Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2021 5:21 pm

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Rivendale »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 2:50 pm
Dr. Moore wrote: On the topic of child safety, it is entirely controllable with the right priorities and system structure.
It doesn't matter about the aggregate numbers or where the Church falls on the curve, if it's happening at all, and it's an entirely controllable, but instead the leaders are covering it up, then I think we know where the leaders are at on the scale of evil. And we also know something about the ethics of those who are apologists for the leaders. Among other things, the cover-up means that the average member doesn't know the risks. Sure, life has risks, but I can look up registered offenders in my area and find out information. Members are dupes for the most part and are biased towards their leaders incapable of doing wrong, so that makes it even worse. As long as it doesn't affect the apologist in question, who cares, right? Same as anti-vaxxers as long as it's other people and not them.

I don't think at the war in heaven, that when Jesus gave his plan, that the risks of agency were hidden from the plan participants. God didn't withhold the truth for the greater good, did he?
Bednar has redifined agency. Now it is moral agency and you sacrifice that when babtized. And in a brilliant stroke of the philosophies of men mingled with scripture agency increases as covenants are kept.
drumdude
God
Posts: 5195
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by drumdude »

I am at the stage in dealing with the church where we need to start discussing compensation. Sadly, I know this includes a NDA. I am in turmoil. I’m so angry with the coverups, and don’t want to be a part of it - but - I have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in therapy the past 10 years alone. Literally. I haven’t been able to work for 10 years either. It has cost my family a fortune. And I’m not done yet. I have been in pain for 36 years. PH leaders were aware of the abuse and shamed me. My records have disappeared etc. I’m exhausted and I admit that a financial settlement would really help my family reclaim our losses. But I am torn …. Do I make more noise (which few people seem to care about), or do I sing and try to move on with my life? Those who signed a NDA - do you regret it? I feel like maybe I’d be handing back power to these men. Selling my voice, you know. One that took me years and years to find. It’s still barely a whisper
https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ing_a_nda/

It’s heartbreaking seeing someone torn between taking the money and signing the NDA or speaking out to try and prevent more abuse. This truly is the church of KM.
Tom
Area Authority
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:41 pm

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Tom »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 3:36 am
A few comments from faithful Mormons on reddit:
I'm very confused on why background checks are still not required among everyone that works with children in the church
I’m in California and the state now requires everyone working In youth to undergo background checks now. I’m quite happy with it. Church paid for everyone
I was at an event with the KM attorney who is in change of abuse cases and oversees the hotline and he was asked this very question. He made two points:

First he claimed that in all of the cases that he was aware of of a church leader/teacher/etc abusing a child, only one would have failed a background check.

His second point was that the church has its own background processes, which he believes are more effective. He mentioned two that I can remember.

The first is annotation. Annotation is a process where leaders are supposed to put an asterisk on any member's record who has ever confessed to or been credibly accused of child abuse or anything like it. Even if the person fully repents in the eyes of the church, the asterisk remains. With an asterisk, you are not allowed to serve in any calling where you work with children or youth. In fact, the church MLS computer system will not let you even input a member for such callings if they have an asterisk. The church also has an automated program the combs the sex offender registries of all 50 states and annotates any record that matches a church member.
I’d be interested to learn the name of the program and when it was implemented. Was Michael Davis’ membership record annotated? https://www.fox9.com/news/from-register ... leader.amp
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
drumdude
God
Posts: 5195
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by drumdude »

DP wrote:I'm confident that the Church, which is not actually led by callous and amoral monsters, has sane, intelligent, informed people looking into this case to see what can be learned from it and what in the system, if anything, can be improved.
Yes Daniel, it's possible that the system is as good as it gets!

After all, these are prophets, seers, and revelators at the helm. The system should already be perfect.

This is a perfect example of a completely callous tone-deaf statement. DP should stick to saying nothing.
Philo Sofee
God
Posts: 5001
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:18 am

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Philo Sofee »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:49 pm
DP wrote:I'm confident that the Church, which is not actually led by callous and amoral monsters, has sane, intelligent, informed people looking into this case to see what can be learned from it and what in the system, if anything, can be improved.
Yes Daniel, it's possible that the system is as good as it gets!

After all, these are prophets, seers, and revelators at the helm. The system should already be perfect.

This is a perfect example of a completely callous tone-deaf statement. DP should stick to saying nothing.
Yeah they look into the case, and then hide it and protect the abusers, we already all know this. I agree, this is as tone deaf as it gets. Let the evil continue, let the evil perpetrators stay so they can prolong it all... sure, this is how Jesus wants his church run, through lawyers, not prophets. All those millenia, and the scripture mistakenly thought it was prophets who run the show. Now we know it's the lawyers who can't determine right from wrong, unless there is a boatload of money to protect...
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by malkie »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:49 pm
DP wrote:I'm confident that the Church, which is not actually led by callous and amoral monsters, has sane, intelligent, informed people looking into this case to see what can be learned from it and what in the system, if anything, can be improved.
Yes Daniel, it's possible that the system is as good as it gets!

After all, these are prophets, seers, and revelators at the helm. The system should already be perfect.

This is a perfect example of a completely callous tone-deaf statement. DP should stick to saying nothing.
Prof P has a habit of referring to himself in over-the-top pejoratives, attributing them to his critics, as a strawman. Here he simply shifts the straw figure to the leaders of the church.

On the other hand, perhaps he really thinks that for the system to be improvable would imply that the leaders are "callous and amoral monsters".

He may have heard the saying, widely attributed to Burke: “All that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.“ Perhaps he even agrees, but simply sees no application here, since it doesn't support his straw man.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
drumdude
God
Posts: 5195
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:29 am

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by drumdude »

It's a false dichotomy. It's possible for the leaders to have taken the wrong action, or no action, without them being "monsters."

They can just be poor leaders who still deserve all the criticism. Unfortunately, the religion teaches that any criticism of their actions is a grievous sin which insulates them from the feedback which is necessary to make changes to bad policy. Time and time again, it is the secular world which forces these men to make the right decisions. And then they pretend that it came from within themselves.
User avatar
Dr Moore
Endowed Chair of Historical Innovation
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:16 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Dr Moore »

Well, just one very obvious partial solution might have been to follow the Scouts. I was involved as a merit badge counselor in our ward troop right until the end, and still volunteer through a local Methodist troop.

Long has the Scouting organization been learning from mistakes, bringing on experts in grooming, abuse, safety. In order for me to remain an adult counselor, every 2 years I must complete a 72 minute “youth protection” training. It gets better every year. There are simple, basic values embedded in that training and the adults are expected to police one another on these practices. They are non negotiable and no exceptions are permitted. Including:

1. Adults may never ever be alone with any youth. Two deep leadership is required for every interaction. This includes in person, e-mail, phone calls, zoom and texting.
2. Every accusation or even rumor of abuse must be reported to the scoutmaster, parents and critically to authorities. Period.
3. Grooming behavior is extensively instructed so that adults can watch for the slightest violation.
4. Younger scouts can not share tents or be alone with older scouts (2yr gap).
5. Bullying of any kind must be reported to scout master and parents. Includes any form of unwanted physical contact or verbal abuse. Period.
6. Scout leaders may never, ever touch a Scout youth. Other than the Scout handshake, in the presence of others. No black slaps (I’m looking sideways at Lou Midgley). No hugs. No hair tussling.
7. Parents who attend Scout overnight activities for more than 2 days must take the youth protection training, register as a leader and certify they know the rules and will follow. This is also not negotiable.

You get the idea. These practices wouldn’t solve all church problems re abuse, and are still evolving as Scouting seeks to improve post scandal and bankruptcy. But let’s be super clear — church practices for youth do not come anywhere near the Scouting standard for youth protection. It stands to reason therefore that abuse will be more problematic in the church than in Scouting to this day.

This story has legs. It’s going to be so painful if church leaders resist calls for reformation, restitution and apology.

That sucks.
doubtingthomas
God
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2021 6:04 pm

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by doubtingthomas »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:05 pm
4. Younger scouts can not share tents or be alone with older scouts (2yr gap).
Wouldn't a no-year gap be better? "Researchers predict that between one third to a half of all child sexual abuse is carried out by other children and young people under the age of 18 years."
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles ... xual-abuse

What is the solution?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
User avatar
malkie
God
Posts: 1475
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:41 pm

Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by malkie »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:11 pm
Dr Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:05 pm
4. Younger scouts can not share tents or be alone with older scouts (2yr gap).
Do you mean a maximum of 2 years? "Researchers predict that between one third to a half of all child sexual abuse is carried out by other children and young people under the age of 18 years."
https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles ... xual-abuse

What is the solution?
My scout troop abuser was only a year or two older than me. It's not just adults, and not just those with a 2-year+ gap, who may be abusers.

It's quite possible that none of the 7 provisions would have helped me, unless the younger kids can be persuaded that there's a good chance they will be believed. The boy who molested me told me quite clearly that if I accused him of anything, he would say I started it, and the adults would believe him because he was a patrol leader, and I was just a little kid.

That is why the inquiry into my departure from Scouting went nowhere: I simply sat there, in a meeting with the leaders, and cried, with my patrol leader across the table from me. I said nothing, because (I believed) if I told the truth it would just be worse for me.
You can help Ukraine by talking for an hour a week!! PM me, or check www.enginprogram.org for details.
Слава Україні!, 𝑺𝒍𝒂𝒗𝒂 𝑼𝒌𝒓𝒂𝒊𝒏𝒊!
Post Reply