Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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Marcus
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Marcus »

Dr Moore wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:06 pm
They are making this so much worse. Just apologize and commit to do better. Not going to end well if they keep up this charade of insistence they were somehow a “gold standard.” Unlike questions of historicity, claims about abuse safety are demonstrably false.
Agreed. The charade has evolved to include this attempt at justification, which is shameful:
Outside experts who are aware of the Helpline have regularly praised it.
And many, if not most, outside experts have not.
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Dr Moore
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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I’m sure outside experts have praised the idea of a helpline, especially as marketed by the church.

But that is so far away from Jesus’ approval, much less a system with probably better outcomes than average for abuse prevention and detection.

This is not how great leaders earn trust. This is how weak leaders ruin trust.
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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It’s is just getting more shameful, if that’s even possible.

The lds church’s version from their most recent statement:
n late 2011, Paul Adams made a limited confession to his bishop about a single past incident of abuse of one child. The bishop then called the help line, where he was advised about how to fully comply with Arizona’s reporting laws. In compliance with that counsel, from that time forward, the bishop repeatedly tried to intervene and encourage reporting

And from the blog entry rebutting this:

Did they fail to report because the Church told them not to?
Yes, probably, but there are conflicting accounts. DHS Agent Robert Edwards testified at the 2018 criminal trial that Bishop Herrod told him the helpline advised him that he was not required to report.[55] However, the Associated Press released an audio recording where Bishop Herrod told Edwards that he was told that he could not report.[56]

Additionally, official statements from the Church imply that Bishop Herrod was told he could not report,[57]

—-
Footnote 57:

Sam Penrod, Media Manager from the Church, and Bill Maledon, an Arizona attorney representing the Church made identical statements implying that Bishop Herrod was told to not report the abuse:

“As clergy, the bishop was required by Arizona law to maintain the confidentiality of the father's limited confession.”


https://mormonr.org/qnas/tpo8C/failure_ ... ee_arizona
and from the link at the footnote:
Cochise County Attorney Brian McIntyre disagrees [with Penrose’s statement]:

"it's been presented to your news agency that the statute prohibits disclosure, which is just not true. The statute provides a limited exception or times when disclosure is not necessary, based on certain bonified religious principles, but it is not both a sword and a shield."
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Dr Moore
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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Here’s another line by line rebuttal. Excellent points throughout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... s_release/

“Weak and cowardly men who claim to represent God —- the worst form of blasphemy.”
Last edited by Dr Moore on Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Marcus
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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From a Reddit thread about lds church PR problems:
Someone please tell me how a hotline housed in the Risk Assessment department at the church is a hotline that is primarily for the protection of victims.
Reminds me of when, If I recall correctly, BYU got caught handling Title 9 sexual assault cases by people who worked in the Honor Code dept instead of having a federally required independent agency, and the byu police were caught helping out by illegally accessing Provo police records of the victims.
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
AUGUST 8, 2022 BY DAN PETERSON
It is unusual to hear Dr. Peterson talking so tough against his fellow Saints. Was he aiming this against the Heartlanders, but failed to realize this applied to the general membership?
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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Dr Moore
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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Moksha wrote:
Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:46 pm
“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.”
AUGUST 8, 2022 BY DAN PETERSON
It is unusual to hear Dr. Peterson talking so tough against his fellow Saints. Was he aiming this against the Heartlanders, but failed to realize this applied to the general membership?
Yeah, wow. I mean, it took 20 years and the Catholic abuse issue is just now fully coming into view. It’s become a meme, and not the funny kind. It seems Mormon leaders will continue to insist on portraying moral superiority to the membership, even as their negligence is revealed by the wicked world. What an irony. This isn’t an attack or a criticism born of Satan, which of course is how leaders want the members to internalize this AP story. This is good people showing up because mediocre people pretending to be the best failed.
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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Associated Press story today:
Judge limits privilege defense in AZ Mormon sex abuse case

By MICHAEL REZENDES

An Arizona judge overseeing a high-profile lawsuit accusing the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of conspiring to cover-up child sex abuse has ruled that the church may not refuse to answer questions or turn over documents under the state’s “clergy-penitent privilege.”

Clergy in Arizona, as in many other states, are required to report information about child sexual abuse or neglect to law enforcement or child welfare authorities. But an exception to that law — the privilege — allows members of the clergy who learn of the abuse through spiritual confessions to keep the information secret.

Judge Laura Cardinal ruled on Aug. 8 that the late Paul Adams waived his right to keep his confessions secret when he posted videos of himself sexually abusing his two daughters on the Internet, boasted of the abuse on social media, and confessed to federal law enforcement agents, who arrested him in 2017 with no help from the church.

“Taken together, Adams’ overt acts demonstrate a lack of repentance and a profound disregard” for the principles of the church, widely known as the Mormon church, Cardinal said in her ruling. “His acts can only be characterized as a waiver of the clergy-penitent privilege.”

The lawsuit accuses two Arizona bishops and church leaders in Salt Lake City of negligence in not reporting the abuse and allowing Adams to continue abusing his older daughter for as many as seven years, a time in which he also abused the girl’s infant sister.

Cardinal issued her order, which the church is expected to appeal, after attorneys for three victims objected when the church refused to turn over disciplinary records for Adams, who was excommunicated in 2013. The victims’ attorneys also objected when a church official cited the privilege when refusing to answer questions during pre-trial testimony.

“The judge’s order applies to the church’s secret records and to what happened at the secret ex-communication hearing,” said Lynne Cadigan, an attorney for the three children who filed suit.

Cardinal’s order will require church official Richard Fife, a clerk who took notes during the excommunication hearing, to answer questions from the attorneys representing the Adams children. It will also require church officials to turn over records of the disciplinary council meeting.

The church has filed a legal motion asking Cardinal to delay implementing her order until it contests her findings with the Arizona Court of Appeals. Without the delay, church lawyers said, information it considers confidential under the clergy-penitent privilege would be released to attorneys for the Adams children and, potentially, the public.

“The privileged information will have been disclosed and it would be impossible to ’un-ring the bell,” the church said.

Church officials did not return calls from the AP seeking additional comment on the ruling.

In a motion filed earlier this year asking Cardinal to dismiss the case, the church said its defense “hinges entirely” on whether bishops John Herrod and Robert “Kim” Mauzy were required to report Adams’ “confidential confessions” to civil authorities, or were excused from reporting requirements under the privilege.
More at the link.
“But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong.” Heber C. Kimball, 8 Nov. 1857
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

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The lawsuit accuses two Arizona bishops and church leaders in Salt Lake City of negligence in not reporting the abuse and allowing Adams to continue abusing his older daughter for as many as seven years, a time in which he also abused the girl’s infant sister.
I think KevinSim needs to hit the knees and ask about the trueness of his church again. This is absurd. Either Jesus is a capricious god or “Kevin’s” faith is misplaced and misguided. Whatever “preserve the good things” “Kevin” has in mind ought not include a church who protects a child rapist and later a man who had sex with a baby. Repeatedly.

Unbelievable. Actually, no. It’s very believable, and it’s damned nuts.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: Mormon churches are not an exceptionally dangerous place for children

Post by Marcus »

if this is correct, it makes sense why they want the excommunication records released:
AP Story: Paul Adams was Excommunicated for having sex with his MOTHER, not for molesting his children.

Credit goes to u/nomomomobro

Source: https://mormonr.org/qnas/tpo8C/failure_ ... ee_arizona

Footnote 24:

Shaunice Warr stated that she thought she remembered Paul had been excommunicated sometime before 2011 and that his excommunication was unrelated to he abuse of his children, but rather for having sex with his mother. FBI Agent J. Allen stated that Leizza disclosed to him that Paul had been excommunicated for having sex with his mother. However, DHS Agent Robert Edwards testified that Bishop Herrod told him that Paul was excommunicated for the sexual abuse of his children. The court transcript implies that the excommunication occurred in 2013.

Shaunice Warr was a Border Patrol officer who also was the Adam's SS teacher and Leizza Adams (wife of Paul Adams) visiting teacher. She is the one who has a recording of the bishop (John Herrod) stating that the church helpline told him he "could not report sexual abuse".

Another crazy part of this, the bishop who didn't report this, John Herrod, was also the ADAM'S damned FAMILY PHYSICIAN!

https://old.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comme ... ource=link
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