The burden is now upon those who deny the ancient origins of the Book of Mormon

[¥akaSteelhead]

as a huge number of the names in the Book of Mormon are culled from, and slightly modified versions of Old Testament names, that there are "ancient" names in the Book of Mormon shows what exactly? **NOTHING**

[Doctor Steuss]

It is necessary that the Book of Mormon have ancient names, whether from the ancient Near East or from ancient Mesoamerica, if the claim that the book is of ancient origin is to ring true.

Our work has shown that the names and the foreign words in the Book of Mormon are ancient in origin, whether from ancient Hebrew or some other Semitic language, ancient Egyptian, ancient Mesopotamian (Akkadian or Sumerian), or ancient Greek.

I believe we have done our homework showing that the names are ancient in origin. The burden is now upon those who deny the ancient origins of the Book of Mormon to show that its names are not of ancient origin.

https://www.fromthedesk.org/book-of-mor ... omasticon/

I notice that there's a hemisphere missing from the findings of their work.

[Marcus]

https://www.fromthedesk.org/book-of-mor ... omasticon/

Why would someone who denies the ancient origins of the Book of Mormon feel any need to prove the names Joseph Smith used are not of ancient origin? Have they shown that each and every name used in the Book of Mormon is of ancient origin? It only takes one modernly-created name to blow the lid off of the name game somehow corroborating the ancient authenticity of the Book of Mormon text.

good question.

About 75-80% of the names and foreign words in the Book of Mormon are Hebrew in origin. This suggests the deep influence of Hebrew on naming patterns in the Book of Mormon.

this is from the excerpt essay, hopefully the book explains what the other 20-25% of the names and foreign words are in origin. i'm getting the sense this may be like Carmack and Skousen's Early Modern English percentages.

[Marcus]

this is another excerpt that didn't really seem to support the author's premise.

“I have dreamed a dream”

In 1 Nephi 8:2, “I have dreamed a dream” is an example of paronomasia, very popular in the Semitic, but avoided in English and other European languages (hence 1 Nephi 8:2 continues with “or, in other words, I have seen a vision.”)

In other words, Smith imitated something that may have sounded obscure, and then followed up ("or, in other words...") with what the author considered a more modern explanation.

Why would an author of an ancient document need to include a modern explanation in that ancient document?

[MG 2.0]

Names don't cut it.

In addition to other internal linguistic stuff going on…complex chiastic structures and proven/shown multiple authorship…this adds another layer of antiquity to this believer. I realize that to those who are for other reasons not interested in baptism and/or activity in the church, internal evidences that cause one to think twice about Joseph Smith as author are more or less something that need to be circumvented.

I think Ricks makes a valid point. But that’s me. An active member of the church. Those like me are obviously more prone to look at these things with a more believing heart. Died in the wool skeptics are going to view things differently and always find something to quibble with.

To each his or her own.

Regards,
MG

[Gadianton]

I think Ricks makes a valid point. But that’s me. An active member of the church.

Thanks MG, what you're saying is that Ricks doesn't make a valid point.

[Marcus]

I think Ricks makes a valid point. But that’s me. An active member of the church.

Thanks MG, what you're saying is that Ricks doesn't make a valid point.

exactly.

...Those like me are obviously more prone to look at these things with a more believing heart...

Evaluating factual arguments, when your starting assumption is a "belief" from your heart that MUST be preserved, is irrational.

[dastardly stem]

. Those like me are obviously more prone to look at these things with a more believing heart.

To each his or her own.

Regards,
MG

You mean if one is gullible they will accept any argument?

[Rick Grunder]

Marcus makes a powerful point by asking, “Why would an author of an ancient document need to include a modern explanation in that ancient document?” I would ask further why an ancient author should think to warn on the Book of Mormon’s statedly-ancient title page that “if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; . . .”; -or fear that his readers might wonder “if these things are ^not^ true,” as in Moroni 10:4 (“not” added above-line in the printer’s manuscript)?

Regarding “dreamed a dream” and similar examples, Mormon defender Donald W. Parry wrote: "The cognate accusative is a direct object noun that shares the same root as the preceding verb, as in Joseph 'dreamed a dream' (Genesis 37:5) instead of the more customary English rendering 'Joseph had a dream.' " Dr. Parry explains that Bible texts in Hebrew contain "numerous examples of the cognate accusative . . . although literal representations of this form is [sic] generally not used in translation." –Parry, "Hebraisms and Other Ancient Peculiarities in the Book of Mormon," in Parry, Daniel C. Peterson and John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon. (Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), [2002]), 176-77).

Among "many instances of the cognate accusative" in the Book of Mormon, Dr. Parry cites 1 Nephi 2:23 ("I will curse them even with a sore curse"); 1 Nephi 3:2 and 8:2 ("Behold I have dreamed a dream"); 1 Nephi 13:5 ("yoketh them with a yoke"); 1 Nephi 14:7 ( "I will work a great and a marvelous work"); 2 Nephi 5:15 and Mosiah 23:5 ("build buildings"); Enos 1:13 ("this was the desire which I desired of him"); Mosiah 4:16 ("succor those that stand in need of your succor"); Mosiah 7:15 ("taxed with a tax"); Mosiah 11:10 and Ether 10:23 ("work all manner of fine work"); Mosiah 29:29, 43 ("judge righteous judgments"); Alma 5:26 ("sing the song"); and Alma 18:5 ("fear exceedingly, with fear"). (Parry, 177; see also Largey, 322-23)

Note that while "sing the song [of Moses]" does occur once in the Bible, in Revelation 15:3, Alma's version, to "sing the song [of redeeming love]," above, is a non-biblical Protestant phrase seen in Joseph Smith's nineteenth-century world.

Compare this biblical style imitation to that of Gilbert J. Hunt in The Late War, Between the United States and Great Britain, From June, 1812, to February, 1815. Written in the Ancient Historical Style. . . . Third Edition. With improvements by the author. (New York: Published by Daniel D. Smith, No. 190, Greenwich-Street, 1819; and numerous other identically-paged editions):

–sealed with the signet [p. 11]

–And the great Sanhedrim honored Isaac with great honor [p. 32;] Jackson was honored with great honour [p. 219]

–rejoiced with great joy [p. 55; see also p. 142]

–and they pitched them within and without with pitch; after the fashion of the ark. [p. 98]

–the men shouted with loud shouting. [p. 107]

–And they yelled with dreadful yellings, [p. 119]

–and slew them with great slaughter [pp. 127, 176; see also pp. 111 and 159. This construction, to slay with slaughter, occurs four times in the Old Testament ("slew") and five times in the Book of Mormon ("to slay," "did slay," and "slew"). The Old Testament slaughters recounted using this construction are all "great"; Hunt's slaughters include three "great" and one "terrible," and the Book of Mormon's, three "great," one "exceedingly great" and one "much."]

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Names don't cut it.

In addition to other internal linguistic stuff going on…complex chiastic structures and proven/shown multiple authorship…this adds another layer of antiquity to this believer. I realize that to those who are for other reasons not interested in baptism and/or activity in the church, internal evidences that cause one to think twice about Joseph Smith as author are more or less something that need to be circumvented.

I think Ricks makes a valid point. But that’s me. An active member of the church. Those like me are obviously more prone to look at these things with a more believing heart. Died in the wool skeptics are going to view things differently and always find something to quibble with.

To each his or her own.

Regards,
MG

Marcus makes a powerful point by asking, “Why would an author of an ancient document need to include a modern explanation in that ancient document?” I would ask further why an ancient author should think to warn on the Book of Mormon’s statedly-ancient title page that “if there be fault, it be the mistake of men; . . .”; -or fear that his readers might wonder “if these things are ^not^ true,” as in Moroni 10:4 (“not” added above-line in the printer’s manuscript)?

Regarding “dreamed a dream” and similar examples, Mormon defender Donald W. Parry wrote: "The cognate accusative is a direct object noun that shares the same root as the preceding verb, as in Joseph 'dreamed a dream' (Genesis 37:5) instead of the more customary English rendering 'Joseph had a dream.' " Dr. Parry explains that Bible texts in Hebrew contain "numerous examples of the cognate accusative . . . although literal representations of this form is [sic] generally not used in translation." –Parry, "Hebraisms and Other Ancient Peculiarities in the Book of Mormon," in Parry, Daniel C. Peterson and John W. Welch, eds., Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon. (Provo, Utah: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies (FARMS), [2002]), 176-77).

Among "many instances of the cognate accusative" in the Book of Mormon, Dr. Parry cites 1 Nephi 2:23 ("I will curse them even with a sore curse"); 1 Nephi 3:2 and 8:2 ("Behold I have dreamed a dream"); 1 Nephi 13:5 ("yoketh them with a yoke"); 1 Nephi 14:7 ( "I will work a great and a marvelous work"); 2 Nephi 5:15 and Mosiah 23:5 ("build buildings"); Enos 1:13 ("this was the desire which I desired of him"); Mosiah 4:16 ("succor those that stand in need of your succor"); Mosiah 7:15 ("taxed with a tax"); Mosiah 11:10 and Ether 10:23 ("work all manner of fine work"); Mosiah 29:29, 43 ("judge righteous judgments"); Alma 5:26 ("sing the song"); and Alma 18:5 ("fear exceedingly, with fear"). (Parry, 177; see also Largey, 322-23)

Note that while "sing the song [of Moses]" does occur once in the Bible, in Revelation 15:3, Alma's version, to "sing the song [of redeeming love]," above, is a non-biblical Protestant phrase seen in Joseph Smith's nineteenth-century world.

Compare this biblical style imitation to that of Gilbert J. Hunt in The Late War, Between the United States and Great Britain, From June, 1812, to February, 1815. Written in the Ancient Historical Style. . . . Third Edition. With improvements by the author. (New York: Published by Daniel D. Smith, No. 190, Greenwich-Street, 1819; and numerous other identically-paged editions):

–sealed with the signet [p. 11]

–And the great Sanhedrim honored Isaac with great honor [p. 32;] Jackson was honored with great honour [p. 219]

–rejoiced with great joy [p. 55; see also p. 142]

–and they pitched them within and without with pitch; after the fashion of the ark. [p. 98]

–the men shouted with loud shouting. [p. 107]

–And they yelled with dreadful yellings, [p. 119]

–and slew them with great slaughter [pp. 127, 176; see also pp. 111 and 159. This construction, to slay with slaughter, occurs four times in the Old Testament ("slew") and five times in the Book of Mormon ("to slay," "did slay," and "slew"). The Old Testament slaughters recounted using this construction are all "great"; Hunt's slaughters include three "great" and one "terrible," and the Book of Mormon's, three "great," one "exceedingly great" and one "much."]

- Doc