Marines over a Mission

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Morley
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Re: Marines over a Mission

Post by Morley »

DrW wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:58 am
Morley wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:36 pm
I was a staff sergeant in Pleiku, rather than a missionary in São Paulo. Like you, DrW, I've never regretted my choice.
Hey Morely,

Why am I not surprised? (That bit of personal information explains a lot about the quality of your contributions to the board - at least to me.)

Below is the text of a message from a colleague who retired from the Army as a LtCol. He and I were friends at our first meeting, having both had our service lives revolve around M48 series main battle tanks (Yes - we are both Old Corps.).

We have been in the trenches of business together for more than a decade. Referring to my comments about the important role of senior NCOs in watching out for and training new second lieutenants in ground force operations, he wrote back:
_________________________________________________
Hi DrW,

You are absolutely correct. I still remember my first Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant Speakman, who was old Army and had been running the Platoon without an officer for over 6 months.

I was a brand new 2nd Lt, in Armor, but assigned to a straight-leg infantry battalion, because Vietnam caused a shortage of Infantry Lieutenants.

So, I report to the Platoon and I can read SGT Speakman's mind. --"Not only do they send me a brand new Shavetail but one who's not even Infantry".

So he calls me aside and says. "Look Lieutenant, this is your platoon now and I'll listen to what you say, but if you listen to me I'll make you the best Platoon leader in this battalion. I won't correct you or embarrass you in front of the men but I will be behind you every step of the way, either way. It's your call Lieutenant."

Well, I took his advice and when I left Korea, we did have the best Platoon in the Battalion and won the division competition. In fact, I became the Battalion Commander's favorite Platoon Leader. But it wasn't my doing, it was that Old Army Platoon Sergeant, who after about four months, told me. "Ok, L.T. you're ready now."

That was over 50 years ago and I still have his picture. Great Observation DrW, and so true. Thanks for reminding me, it brought back some great memories.

_______________________________________

That story well captures the contribution of senior NCOs. A retired Army one-star general in our group related a similar young officer-senior NCO interaction story to us a few years ago.

So, a well-earned salute to you, Morley. The step up in responsibility and force impact from E5 to E6 is a significant one.

As we who follow the Ukraine conflict know, one of the main reasons that the Russians are getting their posteriors handed to them in the field, and losing so many senior commissioned officers (14 general rank officers last I counted), is that their NCO Corps has been hollowed out over time due to low pay, poor training, and non-retention, resulting from rampant corruption.

They have little or no effective small unit leadership. They are becoming an organization of generals and colonels leading a force of poorly trained and equipped conscripts. I predict here and now that the lack of effective NCO leadership, coupled with deteriorating logistics support, will cost the Russians their advances in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and eventually Crimea.
Good morning, DrW.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure that I deserve them.

I was little more than a week out of high school when I shipped to Basic Training. I went to Basic, AIT, Jump School, NCO School (we called it "shake-and-bake" because it created instant sergeants), Ranger School, then to a LRRP unit in Vietnam.

My service as an NCO was a little different from what you describe. I ran four-man teams (sometimes with Montagnard scouts) on intelligence gathering, sniper, and ambush missions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Vietnam and into Loas. I won't say more than that.

I was not much more than a child at the time. I was out of the Army by the time I was in my early twenties.

In some very significant ways, I've both paid for my service and have benefited from it in the years since. That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Or for a mission.

...

In answer to MG's question as to how my time in the Army impacted my decision to not go on a mission.

1. My military service devoured my youth, impacted my health, and (happily) deflowered my innocence.
2. My brothers-in-arms were the Church's cursed descendants of Cain. I learned how repugnant that doctrine was.
3. I'd been exposed to the Problem of Evil.

After my discharge, I came home, married in the temple, worked a union job, had kids, and went to college. The seeds that had been planted in the Army grew into the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I cried and researched and prayed and prayed and prayed. And left the Church.
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DrW
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Re: Marines over a Mission

Post by DrW »

Holy hell, Morley.
What can I say?
I had no idea and never would have guessed.
Thank you - for everything.

_____________________________

I may have a few words for MG as well.
But not until I read your post a few more times.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Marines over a Mission

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Morley wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:16 pm
DrW wrote:
Sat Aug 13, 2022 1:58 am

Hey Morely,

Why am I not surprised? (That bit of personal information explains a lot about the quality of your contributions to the board - at least to me.)

Below is the text of a message from a colleague who retired from the Army as a LtCol. He and I were friends at our first meeting, having both had our service lives revolve around M48 series main battle tanks (Yes - we are both Old Corps.).

We have been in the trenches of business together for more than a decade. Referring to my comments about the important role of senior NCOs in watching out for and training new second lieutenants in ground force operations, he wrote back:
_________________________________________________
Hi DrW,

You are absolutely correct. I still remember my first Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant Speakman, who was old Army and had been running the Platoon without an officer for over 6 months.

I was a brand new 2nd Lt, in Armor, but assigned to a straight-leg infantry battalion, because Vietnam caused a shortage of Infantry Lieutenants.

So, I report to the Platoon and I can read SGT Speakman's mind. --"Not only do they send me a brand new Shavetail but one who's not even Infantry".

So he calls me aside and says. "Look Lieutenant, this is your platoon now and I'll listen to what you say, but if you listen to me I'll make you the best Platoon leader in this battalion. I won't correct you or embarrass you in front of the men but I will be behind you every step of the way, either way. It's your call Lieutenant."

Well, I took his advice and when I left Korea, we did have the best Platoon in the Battalion and won the division competition. In fact, I became the Battalion Commander's favorite Platoon Leader. But it wasn't my doing, it was that Old Army Platoon Sergeant, who after about four months, told me. "Ok, L.T. you're ready now."

That was over 50 years ago and I still have his picture. Great Observation DrW, and so true. Thanks for reminding me, it brought back some great memories.

_______________________________________

That story well captures the contribution of senior NCOs. A retired Army one-star general in our group related a similar young officer-senior NCO interaction story to us a few years ago.

So, a well-earned salute to you, Morley. The step up in responsibility and force impact from E5 to E6 is a significant one.

As we who follow the Ukraine conflict know, one of the main reasons that the Russians are getting their posteriors handed to them in the field, and losing so many senior commissioned officers (14 general rank officers last I counted), is that their NCO Corps has been hollowed out over time due to low pay, poor training, and non-retention, resulting from rampant corruption.

They have little or no effective small unit leadership. They are becoming an organization of generals and colonels leading a force of poorly trained and equipped conscripts. I predict here and now that the lack of effective NCO leadership, coupled with deteriorating logistics support, will cost the Russians their advances in Eastern and Southern Ukraine, and eventually Crimea.
Good morning, DrW.

Thank you for the kind words. I'm not sure that I deserve them.

I was little more than a week out of high school when I shipped to Basic Training. I went to Basic, AIT, Jump School, NCO School (we called it "shake-and-bake" because it created instant sergeants), Ranger School, then to a LRRP unit in Vietnam.

My service as an NCO was a little different from what you describe. I ran four-man teams (sometimes with Montagnard scouts) on intelligence gathering, sniper, and ambush missions along the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Vietnam and into Loas. I won't say more than that.

I was not much more than a child at the time. I was out of the Army by the time I was in my early twenties.

In some very significant ways, I've both paid for my service and have benefited from it in the years since. That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. Or for a mission.

...

In answer to MG's question as to how my time in the Army impacted my decision to not go on a mission.

1. My military service devoured my youth, impacted my health, and (happily) deflowered my innocence.
2. My brothers-in-arms were the Church's cursed descendants of Cain. I learned how repugnant that doctrine was.
3. I'd been exposed to the Problem of Evil.

After my discharge, I came home, married in the temple, worked a union job, had kids, and went to college. The seeds that had been planted in the Army grew into the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. I cried and researched and prayed and prayed and prayed. And left the Church.
That was a heck of a read, brother. Thanks for sharing.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: Marines over a Mission

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Morley and DrW,

You’ve both earned my respect a long time ago. This thread further cements my respect and gratitude for both of you.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
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Re: Marines over a Mission

Post by DrW »

Rivendale wrote:
Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:38 pm
My son was teetering towards church attendance and possibly a mission. What changed him? He signed up for the army and did two tours in Iraq. During his first tour he was the lead armed vehicle of a convoy at night. The convoy was attacked and he and his gunner became separated from the group. His vehicle ran over an IED and received damage. They had no radio control and were essentially trapped as other vehicles approached. They were under orders to avoid at all costs capture because of the current propaganda videos being used against them. As the vehicles approached they were preparing for suicide but at the last moment it was American forces. That experience and being trapped for days in their vehicle because of sniper fire changed him forever. He is now approaching his 20th year in the army and is atheist. Thank you for your service.
Rivendale,

My respects to your son. Sounds like he and his gunner made it out okay. Hopefully, he will take his 20-year retirement benefits and start his second life. I have had the privilege of working with former military - a lot. Together we have learned how to leverage the relationships and connections they made, and the skills they learned, to the benefit of all of us. I wish your son well, as a vet and as one who has shed the burden of religion.

My father, who was a WWII vet and a believing Mormon, used to assure me that there were "no atheists in foxholes". As Morley mentioned, in the Vietnam era the LDS Church was still overtly racist - even more than now. Morey described how, in the context of fully integrated military life, LDS racism and the Problem of Evil with religion in general, did not play well. Foxholes turn out to be a lot safer with atheists than with racists.

Some of the strongest leaders to emerge from the civilian rabble entering USMC basic training at during Vietnam came on board as newly drafted, scared, and bewildered black kids. Some seemed near terror standing on the yellow footprints of the MCRD induction center in the middle of the night as DIs screamed at them. However, as they realized that the USMC was pretty much a level playing field, some blossomed into the best and most respected among us.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
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