How long/intensely did you believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

[Physics Guy]

What were they basing their selections upon? None of the terrestrial scenarios that they’d be choosing from would be anything that they’re familiar with.

Perhaps there were test drives? Try out the Black Death for a weekend?

[A]pparently ‘disease’ and ‘poverty’ were pitched enthusiastically during that premortal role selection period, given how many folks the world over made that choice.

Perhaps the pay-off was just so hard to turn down that most people went for the premium version. Or perhaps God's ethics review was weak on informed consent.

[Dr Moore]

Perhaps the pay-off was just so hard to turn down that most people went for the premium version. Or perhaps God's ethics review was weak on informed consent.

PG, you have nailed the reality of this doctrine. "Pre-mortal informed consent" is a Swiss Army knife of doctrinal optionality. I've heard it used to explain why some people agreed to be born in abject circumstances (they knew and still chose a body!), and also to compel young men to serve missions (they knew the terms of their privilege and promised to serve!). Like other blind assertions to be accepted as fact, it's among the most valuable go-to thought-stopping arguments in Mormonism.

[Kishkumen]

I get a real kick out of this new passion for informed consent. The bamboozled have an obligation to disclose to others what they never knew or believed in the first place.

[Gadianton]

I might be able to cook up a reconciliation, for instance by pointing out that the universe's script, however it was generated, ends up obeying causality.

bzzzt. Free Agency in Mormonism is contra-causal. The pinnacle of Chapel Mormonism and agency is probably a famous talk by W. Cleon Skousen where he says all matter, including atoms, have intelligence and the basic freedom to choose. At the behest of God and Christ, at their word, matter obeys. So much more is the freedom that we have, as we might not always choose to obey Christ.

If natural law says a ball is going down because of gravity, and Christ commands it to go up instead, then it goes up.

Justifying the nonsense a little bit, I would say Isaac Newton believed that angels had to engage constantly to keep everything on track -- I believe this meant to keep planets in their proper orbits etc.. There needed to be a place for God. So this isn't quite the same in Mormonism, but it's a similar idea against the one you like that God balls everything up in initial conditions and then lets it play out.

I'll have to regroup and think about where this leaves things though...

[Physics Guy]

I get a real kick out of this new passion for informed consent. The bamboozled have an obligation to disclose to others what they never knew or believed in the first place.

I, at least, am not blaming any Mormon leaders for not spelling things out more to young Mormons, here. I'm questioning the ethics that Mormons seem to attribute to Elohim, who is not supposed to be bamboozled.

It is a bit disturbing to realize that if it is possible that Mormons have all just been duped, even though their faith does provide earthly benefits like confidence and community, then it may also be possible that everything in Mormon teaching functions as advertised up to the level of Elohim—resurrection and exaltation, all of that—but that the next step of progression beyond Elohim is only a scam, because the deity who was Elohim's God was actually only a superhuman con artist.

[Kishkumen]

I, at least, am not blaming any Mormon leaders for not spelling things out more to young Mormons, here. I'm questioning the ethics that Mormons seem to attribute to Elohim, who is not supposed to be bamboozled.

It is a bit disturbing to realize that if it is possible that Mormons have all just been duped, even though their faith does provide earthly benefits like confidence and community, then it may also be possible that everything in Mormon teaching functions as advertised up to the level of Elohim—resurrection and exaltation, all of that—but that the next step of progression beyond Elohim is only a scam, because the deity who was Elohim's God was actually only a superhuman con artist.

It must be nice to have absolute faith in your own cultural script and worldview. Anything else must be a scam.

[Dr Moore]

Hmm, Mormonism works as scripted but it is Elohim who was bamboozled by his predecessor god. Sounds like a fun new season of The Good Place.