How long/intensely did you believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon?

[MG 2.0]

and still no response to a source for this.

There are definitely many paths to enlightenment. Mormonism is a dogmatic fundamentalist system that actually celebrates arrogance and dishonesty when it comes to defending its "only true and living church" claim. It is either the best, or the worst. There isn't middle ground in Mormonism's self portrait.

As a system, Mormonism falls well short on the things Jesus stood for -- social justice and moral high ground -- and it does so with spectacular lack of self awareness. I believe this is why most people on earth merely tolerate or ignore the existence of Mormonism. Members and leaders may not realize, but Mormonism is rapidly becoming a meme due to its colossal failure to produce anything spiritually impressive or offer enduring enlightenment. The doctrine itself is so rife with contradictions, that the term "perfection" is laughable on any objective standard. Secrets, self-gaslighting and vast wealth are the sum of Mormonism's impact on the world.

No wonder it is hardly worth the time of honest people everywhere to engage the question of whether Mormonism is the best system to follow. The vast majority rightly dismiss it as they do other highly demanding, cultish systems. The ultimate question, which I believe the rising generation is answering with impressive aplomb, is whether Mormonism deserves to exist at all.

Mormons are generally more capitalist than socialist. And… Capitalism is the optimal system for resource allocation, best characterized by two words: "creative destruction." On account of objectively not being what it claims to be, Mormonism as we know it is destined to be creatively destroyed.

And of course, those trapped in the system will cheer the process as the "ongoing restoration."

Ok. So we now know the church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ don’t work for you.

So…what now?

Regards,
MG

[MG 2.0]

As an alternative plan, what would you suggest?

That also includes maximum agency.

By the way, I think that, as many have said here, not everyone is cut out to be a member of the church, per se. But that doesn’t mean that 99% plus of God’s children aren’t going to find the same fullness and happiness in an afterlife as me, you, or anyone else. None of us were members of a church in a premortal world [if it exist(s) (ed)]. None of us will be members of a church in a post mortal existence (if there is such an existence).

I would not be at all surprised to find out that we may have ‘signed on’ to a LIMITED scope/range of experiences before coming to earth. Kind of like signing up for school. Primary, secondary, and post secondary education. With options to matriculate to further opportunities either here or hereafter.

The primary reason for coming to earth is to gain a physical body and gain experience. If that experience is not to be had here then it will come later albeit under different conditions. There will be enough folks that have matriculated through the ‘earth program’ that they may well be able to help others along the way in the hereafter.

There are so many paths towards enlightenment and perfection. Mormonism teaches that we reach perfection within a sphere unique to ourselves. My perfection is going to vary from yours. The point is, we are reaching towards completeness/wholeness. Different strokes for different folks. So the fact so few sentient beings that experience earth life do so as members of the ‘true church’ doesn’t really matter. They are gaining similar experiences that they can take into an afterlife.

Work, love, discipline, family, etc.

Terryl Givens proposes that the main difference between Mormons and everyone else is that we have been given authority to build and operate temples and the performance of ordinances necessary for both salvation and/or exaltation. Work for EVERYONE, not just those that are members of the LDS Church.

I think God’s plan is much bigger than we suppose, but I also am of the opinion that the work that the church does through those that accept the fullness of the gospel is critically important in the work of salvation and/or exaltation of God’s children.

The emphasis you place on numbers aren’t of any great consequence. God already knows what that ratio of ‘members’ vs. ‘nonmembers’ is going to be and He’s planned out for it.

D&C 76 gives a general outline of how BIG the plan is and how all encompassing. Especially when compared with general Christianity.

Somehow and somewhere along the line I do think that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ. The only perfect Son of God. But that doesn’t necessarily mean we will all follow Him. We will have agency in an afterlife just as we do here. And yes, we will still travel our own path as we do here, but with the knowledge that there is a Godhead and an overall plan which played a part in the life we came from while on earth.

The longer I live and the more I study, ponder, and pray, I see that ‘Mormonism’ encapsulates the complexity of life and cosmos better, in my opinion, than competing philosophical frameworks or belief systems. None seem to cover all the bases as well as the Restoration Gospel of Jesus Christ. But even the, there is so much to learn and try and understand.

We’re babes in arms.

Regards,
MG

Gadianton, canpakes…alternatives?

I’ll check back at a later time. I’ve got things to do.

Regards,
MG

This keeps getting pushed back as a result of all the static.

I’d invite Dr. Moore to respond along with Gadianton and canpakes.

I am actually rather interested in what you might have to say. At this point you might have to jump back and review what came just before.

If you’re not interested in responding, that’s fine.

Alternatives?

Could we cut out the static?

Regards,
MG

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

*inserts some nonsense*

Regards,
MG

What does that have to do with anything? Also, tell us about the years you spent going to mosque and studying the Quran and Sunna so you could scratch that one off the list.

- Doc

[MG 2.0]

*inserts some nonsense*

Regards,
MG

What does that have to do with anything? Also, tell us about the years you spent going to mosque and studying the Quran and Sunna so you could scratch that one off the list.

- Doc

I think I’m really starting to understand you better. And it’s NOT pretty.

Want to join in with a viable alternative?

You know what we were talking about, right?

Or maybe not…

Regards,
MG

[Marcus]

and still no response to a source for this.

I gave the link.

No you didn't.

And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

What does that have to do with anything? Also, tell us about the years you spent going to mosque and studying the Quran and Sunna so you could scratch that one off the list.

- Doc

I think I’m really starting to understand you better. And it’s NOT pretty.

Want to join in with a viable alternative?

You know what we were talking about, right?

Or maybe not…

Regards,
MG

You’re the one that claimed multiple times you’ve studied all the major religions and philosophies of the world and came to the conclusion Mormonism is the bestest one. So, tell us about the years you spent going to mosque and studying the Quran and Sunna so you could scratch that one off the list.

Also, your quick google search ref perfectionism and Islam was way the “F” off, probably because you know jack crap about Islam, no?

- Doc

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

I gave the link.

No you didn't.

And around and around. MG doesn’t give two craps about data, methodology or logic. All he wants is to get people mad. #ignorethetroll

> be me. be MG.

> constantly throw prophets, apostles, and church history under the bus when they conflict with my version of Mormonism

> find a quote with an apostle offering speculation by old Mormon apostle long dead

> it mirrors my own opinion

> that's WhAt Mormonism TeAcHes!

- _ -

- Doc

[Dr Exiled]

It's just guessing. Anyway, the "plan" I would support is where we come to this world to gain experience in a wild west, uncontrolled world, because without knowledge and how animalistic humans are, we tend to act as we do. This is the only way I can solve the problem of evil in my mind. (Sorry, the Mormon god cannot be god as 3 Nephi 9 clearly shows he was a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination). No one knows beyond this world what happens and the supposed "prophets" are just guessing, including and most certainly Nelson. There isn't the stark judgment christianity posits, only learning from mistakes and growth thereby after we are done in this Westworld existence.

[Gadianton]

I would not be at all surprised to find out that we may have ‘signed on’ to a LIMITED scope/range of experiences before coming to earth.

It's mathematically impossible. All of those Mormon theories about either picking parents, picking challenges, or whatever, would be impossible to work out without predestination being true.

Suppose just one thing was picked for me: I agreed to be in a car accident. That means I have to be born in a time with cars, for one. Subtle implications like this constrain possible events, people have to be born in times and places with tight constraints in order for the details of the events to even be possible, and then everyone's free will has to work out just right so the even happens.

Now just think about all the background assumptions required to make one thing true for every single person. 200,000 spirits agreed to land-mine injuries? There has to be a war, or several wars?, the technology tree has to work out just right to create the kind of weapons that inflict the damage. Another agreed to be born blind. All those agreed to be blind at birth have to have matching gene failures, or mothers in a situation that will cause a birth defect. And they have to be there by their free will. It's absurd.

In fact, it's absurd to believe that the world's population will unfold exactly right in order to equal exactly the number of spirits waiting; without predestination. If you're pro-life, you've got a hot mess to deal with: hundreds of millions agree to enter the fertilized egg and then get aborted? Well, now you have to have a tech tree, the right population level to sustain the numbers, and then the personal decisions of mothers sprouting from life circumstances to match those who agreed to be aborted in the pre-existence.

[Binger]

I would not be at all surprised to find out that we may have ‘signed on’ to a LIMITED scope/range of experiences before coming to earth.

It's mathematically impossible. All of those Mormon theories about either picking parents, picking challenges, or whatever, would be impossible to work out without predestination being true.

Suppose just one thing was picked for me: I agreed to be in a car accident. That means I have to be born in a time with cars, for one. Subtle implications like this constrain possible events, people have to be born in times and places with tight constraints in order for the details of the events to even be possible, and then everyone's free will has to work out just right so the even happens.

Now just think about all the background assumptions required to make one thing true for every single person. 200,000 spirits agreed to land-mine injuries? There has to be a war, or several wars?, the technology tree has to work out just right to create the kind of weapons that inflict the damage. Another agreed to be born blind. All those agreed to be blind at birth have to have matching gene failures, or mothers in a situation that will cause a birth defect. And they have to be there by their free will. It's absurd.

In fact, it's absurd to believe that the world's population will unfold exactly right in order to equal exactly the number of spirits waiting; without predestination. If you're pro-life, you've got a hot mess to deal with: hundreds of millions agree to enter the fertilized egg and then get aborted? Well, now you have to have a tech tree, the right population level to sustain the numbers, and then the personal decisions of mothers sprouting from life circumstances to match those who agreed to be aborted in the pre-existence.

This definitely ain't wrong.