DiscussMormonism.com

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:54 pm

msnobody wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:05 am

Its interesting to see all the mental coping mechanisms that have to exist inside a believers mind. Like this one, where everyone who dismisses the book must be uneducated. Why else would they fail to believe the evidence?

By the time I encountered LDS missionaries and the Book of Mormon, I knew all I need is Jesus and it is through him that I have access to the Father, and blessed with every spiritual blessing. So, the Book of Mormon wasn’t anything I needed.

I’m still exiting this post. Got to ditch the phone and get the laptop

A troubling blanket ad hominem defense at best. Y’er all idiots, dismissed! Meanwhile, people who DO know the Book of Mormon inside out, seminary grads and who literally spent two years doing nothing but selling and studying the book, are leaving in “droves.”

I’m not sure if your comment is directed at me or not, but it looks like I screwed up trying to shorten quotes when I posted.

My comment was:
“By the time I encountered LDS missionaries and the Book of Mormon, I knew all I need is Jesus and it is through him that I have access to the Father, and blessed with every spiritual blessing. So, the Book of Mormon wasn’t anything I needed.”

The above comment was in response to

msnobody wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:04 am

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Mon Aug 15, 2022 9:54 pm

A troubling blanket ad hominem defense at best. Y’er all idiots, dismissed! Meanwhile, people who DO know the Book of Mormon inside out, seminary grads and who literally spent two years doing nothing but selling and studying the book, are leaving in “droves.”

I’m not sure if your comment is directed at me or not, but it looks like I screwed up trying to shorten quotes when I posted.

My comment was:
“By the time I encountered LDS missionaries and the Book of Mormon, I knew all I need is Jesus and it is through him that I have access to the Father, and blessed with every spiritual blessing. So, the Book of Mormon wasn’t anything I needed.”

The above comment was in response to Drumdude’s comment:
“Its interesting to see all the mental coping mechanisms that have to exist inside a believers mind. Like this one, where everyone who dismisses the book must be uneducated. Why else would they fail to believe the evidence?“

Oh no, ha. I was siding with you - think DP’sdefense is weak sauce.

Dr Moore wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:07 am

msnobody wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:04 am

I’m not sure if your comment is directed at me or not, but it looks like I screwed up trying to shorten quotes when I posted.

My comment was:
“By the time I encountered LDS missionaries and the Book of Mormon, I knew all I need is Jesus and it is through him that I have access to the Father, and blessed with every spiritual blessing. So, the Book of Mormon wasn’t anything I needed.”

The above comment was in response to Drumdude’s comment:
“Its interesting to see all the mental coping mechanisms that have to exist inside a believers mind. Like this one, where everyone who dismisses the book must be uneducated. Why else would they fail to believe the evidence?“

Oh no, ha. I was siding with you - think DP’sdefense is weak sauce.

Sorry, I really messed up the formatting. My comment was actually in response to a portion of someone else's post.
Back when I was in the missionary teaching pool, I knew of some of the Book of Mormon problems, but didn't mention them because that was not my objective.

I was just thinking how funny it is that I posted that I didn't need the Book of Mormon (spiritually speaking), and but I actually have maybe 6 copies.

I've got to say, the LDS missionaries taught me well. If it were all true, I'd be deserving of outer darkness.

msnobody wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:20 am

I've got to say, the LDS missionaries taught me well. If it were all true, I'd be deserving of outer darkness.

Whether is is true or not, you are not.

The answer for me is “Never.” I never understood as a kid why my history classes at school didn’t include Book of Mormon material. And then, when I was 10 or 11, I had a Sunday school teacher who said something to the effect of, “Joseph had the Gold Plates, but he didn’t show them to anyone! And that’s how we know the Church is true!” At the time, I thought, “Well, if he’s hiding this, he must be lying.” Just a child’s musings, I guess?

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:45 am

The answer for me is “Never.” I never understood as a kid why my history classes at school didn’t include Book of Mormon material. And then, when I was 10 or 11, I had a Sunday school teacher who said something to the effect of, “Joseph had the Gold Plates, but he didn’t show them to anyone! And that’s how we know the Church is true!” At the time, I thought, “Well, if he’s hiding this, he must be lying.” Just a child’s musings, I guess?

I honestly wish I could understand the difference between our response to that situation and a believing member’s response. Because I don’t think for a second that DCP is a cynic and is pretending to believe. I think he honestly found a way to convince himself that nephites really existed. It’s such a feat of mental gymnastics, it is impressive in it’s own strange unique way.

drumdude wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:00 am

I honestly wish I could understand the difference between our response to that situation and a believing member’s response. Because I don’t think for a second that DCP is a cynic and is pretending to believe. I think he honestly found a way to convince himself that nephites really existed. It’s such a feat of mental gymnastics, it is impressive in it’s own strange unique way.

Do you have any guess as to how someone can maintain that belief when exposed to so much reason and evidence to the contrary? I have wondered if they might have contracted a brain cloud rather than performing mental gymnastics.

Doctor Scratch wrote: ↑

Tue Aug 16, 2022 1:45 am

The answer for me is “Never.” I never understood as a kid why my history classes at school didn’t include Book of Mormon material. And then, when I was 10 or 11, I had a Sunday school teacher who said something to the effect of, “Joseph had the Gold Plates, but he didn’t show them to anyone! And that’s how we know the Church is true!” At the time, I thought, “Well, if he’s hiding this, he must be lying.” Just a child’s musings, I guess?

Ah, the wisdom of some children.

I wasn’t quite so sharp. I just remember finding the story of the lost 116 pages VERY confusing, especially since everyone tended to treat it as confirming evidence of the truth of the Book of Mormon.

I honestly wish I could understand the difference between our response to that situation and a believing member’s response. Because I don’t think for a second that DCP is a cynic and is pretending to believe. I think he honestly found a way to convince himself that nephites really existed. It’s such a feat of mental gymnastics, it is impressive in it’s own strange unique way.

I'm not fully convinced he believes in real Nephites. I am fully convinced he believes life is meaningless if he doesn't get eternal consumption. I think he believes there needs to be a God for morality. Does he believe in God? I think so. But not because he believes in morality and there needs to be a God for morality. The "existence of morality" certainly isn't evidence of to fuel his belief. I think the main positive evidence for his belief is the need for a creator to explain the existence of the world and complex life.

Clearly, whether there are Nephites is way down on the list of necessary facts: The facts required to make a person an eternal consumer. I think he's really betting on the basics: A God sure, hopefully a God that will reward believers with a fulfilling afterlife that's based on what is personally meaningful to him, a great bonus would be for Mormonism to be true, but he's already thrown out things such as personally becoming Gods as necessary to Mormonism.

I think the real impulse to battle over Nephites etc. is insecurity over it. He's not quite sure. And who are these people with lesser education who dare make light of the beliefs of his heritage? Dr. Sorenson has a Phd and believes, and deserves respect for that.

I really tried to believe in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. By being the best Lamanite I could. But little by little first the dominant narrative, then the actual historical facts didn’t hold water.

While getting a BS in genetics the then new field of DNA sequencing pretty much closed that door.