All atheists should be nihilists

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huckelberry
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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Dr Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:29 pm
I will posit the opposite as Dan Peterson, and stake out a claim that Christians and Mormons have equal or higher rates of nihilism than atheists do.

My rationale? Simple.

Christianity and Mormonism are both so rife with existential problems of reality (to name a few: deception/gaslighting, failed prophecy, doctrinal contradictions, magic talk, illogical rationalizations for unacceptable behavior such as racism and sexism, and so many blatantly selfish claims of power, authority and knowledge in the name of Jesus) that life itself feels hopeless for those who seek truth by following a logically consistent, scientific framework.

Those Christians and Mormons are socially damned for pushing too far on facts and logic, yet internally damned for staying quietly in the boat. What could be worse than that? I have a small clue, personally having spent the last 7 years navigating the insanely sensitive turns and corners of faith crisis and belief transition. So assuming some meaningful percentage of "believers" also happen to struggle with existential problems created by their inherited systems of belief, those people are trapped in a living hell, surrounded by people who proudly and ruthlessly validate themselves in a cycle of overconfidence and confirmation bias. What a perfect breeding ground for nihilism. Is it any wonder that religious people end up committing the most horrific crimes?

Atheists, meanwhile, follow what Adam Grant refers to as a "rethinking cycle." (see Think Again). It's the scary dogma of "I don't know." Grant's rethinking cycle is pretty straightforward.

Humility >> Doubt >> Curiosity >> Discovery >> and back around to Humility... and around again and again.

Not having all the answers does not equal hopelessness or nihilism. Only prideful and overconfident people would claim so.
Dr Moore, I am glad you expanded on the idea that religion might have negatives toward meaning in life. I have heard blithe statements that meaning is based upon religion or God. I think that if you are unable to find meaning in the process of living and sharing with others then adding religion will not be a help.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:56 pm
huckelberry wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:50 pm

drumdude, Perhaps this could be explored a bit to see if the ideas involved could be seen a bit more. I do not think atheists need to be nihilists but perhaps some people play with the definition to try and trap atheists logically. What is meant with nihilism? Is it that there is no God to control and limit meaning? I am unsure how the creator role is understood would change the question.

What I am actually wondering about is whether a significant number of evangelicals are emotionally nihilist but hide from that by making a rule, God said no nihilism. (I take fear of science and lust for authoritarian political figures to be evidence of nihilism)
My understanding is that it parallels the moral argument. God is the ultimate source of morality, by definition. God has all the attributes necessary to be a foundation of morality, nothing else created by God does.

So it is with meaning. Without God ultimately nothing has eternal meaning. Since God in Mormonism is missing so many of these classical Christian attributes, Mormonism needs to say something like “the Universe has ultimate meaning on its own.”
drumdude, the thread , "there can be no evidence.." wandered into this subject discussion William Lane Craig. I posted some doubts I have about the moral argument. I did not get response but on second thought I realize that likely absolutely nobody reading this board would actually defend the moral argument.

You may be thinking about it even if not agreeing with it. So I inquire, why concerning meaning do you add either eternal or ultimate. How do those words clarify meaning? Why would something not eternal lack meaning? Why does earthly meanings have to have an ultimate (whatever that could mean) meaning?
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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DCP should also be a nihilist. He's said many times that without an afterlife with infinite consumption, this life is meaningless. In other words, he's a relativist that hitches meaning to his own personal tastes and preferences; to what's good for him personally, given the experiences he's just happened to have up to this point in his life.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Meadowchik »

Dr Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:29 pm
I will posit the opposite as Dan Peterson, and stake out a claim that Christians and Mormons have equal or higher rates of nihilism than atheists do.

My rationale? Simple.

Christianity and Mormonism are both so rife with existential problems of reality (to name a few: deception/gaslighting, failed prophecy, doctrinal contradictions, magic talk, illogical rationalizations for unacceptable behavior such as racism and sexism, and so many blatantly selfish claims of power, authority and knowledge in the name of Jesus) that life itself feels hopeless for those who seek truth by following a logically consistent, scientific framework.

Those Christians and Mormons are socially damned for pushing too far on facts and logic, yet internally damned for staying quietly in the boat. What could be worse than that? I have a small clue, personally having spent the last 7 years navigating the insanely sensitive turns and corners of faith crisis and belief transition. So assuming some meaningful percentage of "believers" also happen to struggle with existential problems created by their inherited systems of belief, those people are trapped in a living hell, surrounded by people who proudly and ruthlessly validate themselves in a cycle of overconfidence and confirmation bias. What a perfect breeding ground for nihilism. Is it any wonder that religious people end up committing the most horrific crimes?

Atheists, meanwhile, follow what Adam Grant refers to as a "rethinking cycle." (see Think Again). It's the scary dogma of "I don't know." Grant's rethinking cycle is pretty straightforward.

Humility >> Doubt >> Curiosity >> Discovery >> and back around to Humility... and around again and again.

Not having all the answers does not equal hopelessness or nihilism. Only prideful and overconfident people would claim so.
In real life: what does today matter in the eternal scheme of things? As long as I endure to the end, so what if I suffer now or so what if I am unhappy? So what if my marriage is not rewarding? So what if my relationships with my kids or other loved ones are distant or unhealthy? All will be resolved in the end, and to my satisfaction if I remain faithful.

In the here and now, Mormonism can make life feel meaningless in many ways. I think this explains alot of feelings of exhilaration some feel when they leave it: there's more power and meaning in the moment.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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Gadianton wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:27 pm
DCP should also be a nihilist. He's said many times that without an afterlife with infinite consumption, this life is meaningless. In other words, he's a relativist that hitches meaning to his own personal tastes and preferences; to what's good for him personally, given the experiences he's just happened to have up to this point in his life.
Yeah and I’ll just add. The teachings of Mormonism and its leaders creates nihilists - is there any other viable alternative for those who leave? Talks like “where will you go” and many others comprised of similar rhetoric literally create a sense of choosing celestial reward or else a meaningless life and despair. How about Nephi’s free to choose liberty or captivity? Still taught in seminary. It is fundamentally binary. There is still today no genuinely, equally hopeful narrative for ex members of the church. Worse, members are taught to shun or at best do nothing when friends or family leave. I just wonder how strong is the correlation between losing family and friends over faith and losing hope about the meaning of life.

Arguably with 70-75% of Mormons no longer practicing, Mormonism has created multiples more nihilists than it has ever created hopeful believers.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Gadianton »

You know, that's a great point Dr. Moore. "Nihilism" is just his snobby term for it.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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Dr Moore wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 11:52 pm
... Talks like “where will you go” and many others comprised of similar rhetoric literally create a sense of choosing celestial reward or else a meaningless life and despair....
to which people like Midgley double down by saying without a belief in god he would have no reason to think rape is wrong. his comment about that was probably the very worst thing i've ever read from a Mormon apologist.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by dastardly stem »

It has been argued Chrstiainity itself is a cause of nihilism, in a similar way as Meadowchik, Gad, and Dr Moore have expressed above (Just try and frame Nietzsche outside of western Christian thinking). In this way nihilism while a philosophical concept also comes out as a feeling we all, or most of us, tend to get from time to time. Leaving a religion can certainly provide that feeling of meaninglessness, particularly as the religion tends to beat into its adherents that without the religion all is lost. Its another case, since he was mentioned, where DCP relies on the thinking of those like William Lane Craig.

Craig:
If there is no God, then man and the universe are doomed. Like prisoners condemned to death, we await our unavoidable execution. There is no God, and there is no immortality. And what is the consequence of this? It means that life itself is absurd. It means that the life we have is without ultimate significance, value, or purpose.
Without God, Craig contends, life is without ultimate significance and that means it's absurd, for some explained reason.

More from Craig:
But Dostoyevsky also showed that man cannot live this way. He cannot live as though it is perfectly all right for soldiers to slaughter innocent children. He cannot live as though it is all right for dictators like Pol Pot to exterminate millions of their own countrymen. Everything in him cries out to say these acts are wrong—really wrong. But if there is no God, he cannot. So he makes a leap of faith and affirms values anyway. And when he does so, he reveals the inadequacy of a world without God.
yes. The man who thinks the Bible is the word of God, with perhaps some mistakes, says it is always wrong to kill innocent children (hosea 13:16, 1 Sam 15:3, Psalms 137:8,9) and he contends those who don't think there is a God cannot honestly or consistently claim it is wrong. So while condemning any atheist for being "totally inconsistent" he argues his inconsistency somehow verifies his "worldview"?

Craig concludes:
Now I want to make it clear that I have not yet shown biblical Christianity to be true. But what I have done is clearly spell out the alternatives. If God does not exist, then life is futile. If the God of the Bible does exist, then life is meaningful. Only the second of these two alternatives enables us to live happily and consistently. Therefore, it seems to me that even if the evidence for these two options were absolutely equal, a rational person ought to choose biblical Christianity. It seems to me positively irrational to prefer death, futility, and destruction to life, meaningfulness, and happiness. As Pascal said, we have nothing to lose and infinity to gain.
Yes. In life there are two options--Craig's Christianity or the absurdity of thinking there is no God. If one believes the Bible and thinks there's a God only then can one live a happy and consistent life. Going back to Craig's hope for evidence, even if the evidence were equal, it'd be better to embrace his brand of Christian. There really is no other option. Consistently speaking. <end sarcasm>

Hello, DCP, the guy you're trying to mimic is saying you too would equally have to be considered a nihilist...just as any atheist.

https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... ithout-god

DCP takes a few sound bites from those like WLC and not much more. We want to find the basis or foundation for Mormon apologetics and it's failings, look to the larger world we too often tend to ignore--Christian apologetics. Mormon theology doesn't really fit with the theology of traditional Christianity, but that doesn't stop Mormon apologists from trying to build their thinking off of that more sophisticated enterprise. I mean, it can't hurt. It gives them something to start from. It may someday put them in the game.

In my mind, DCP tends to be nothing more than a victim of a larger machine which prizes failed logic and inconsistency, but revels in a smarmy place of pretending sophisticated rationale that most people simply can't get. And DCP shows he can't get it either since he regurgitates their sound bites as if they'd ever argue his view should fit nicely with what they are arguing for. In turn DCP's followers thinks he really has something here. Does he? Could he even present an argument showing he does? "well, I mean, it's been argued..." is likely his response.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:27 pm
Yes. In life there are two options--Craig's Christianity or the absurdity of thinking there is no God. If one believes the Bible and thinks there's a God only then can one live a happy and consistent life. Going back to Craig's hope for evidence, even if the evidence were equal, it'd be better to embrace his brand of Christian. There really is no other option. Consistently speaking. <end sarcasm>
Interesting. The dark side of so many “one and only true religion” narratives. Our way, or the highway [to hell]. It’s the same thing I’ve seen play out in Mormonism. Being told you’re destined for hell, or its communal equivalent, is worse than any hopelessness found by not knowing the purpose of life. Sadly, this binary belief logic leads true believers to justify cutting off family members and inflicting unspeakable emotional trauma because, hey, any punishment here is better than what awaits them there. Might as well go to 11 on earthly punishment in the off chance the person changes their mind back to the “right way.” At extreme you get the Inquisitions and 9/11.

I have found atheist friends in my life are guided by a simpler universalist belief that humanity is the prize of the universe. As such, morality should exist and it should seek to preserve and advance humanity. This includes preserving our earth and ecology, social justice and fairness, equal opportunity, scientific exploration of the creation of life and correlates of consciousness. ALL things religions resist, including Mormonism.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

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dastardly stem wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 2:27 pm

Craig concludes:
Now I want to make it clear that I have not yet shown biblical Christianity to be true. But what I have done is clearly spell out the alternatives. If God does not exist, then life is futile. If the God of the Bible does exist, then life is meaningful. Only the second of these two alternatives enables us to live happily and consistently. Therefore, it seems to me that even if the evidence for these two options were absolutely equal, a rational person ought to choose biblical Christianity. It seems to me positively irrational to prefer death, futility, and destruction to life, meaningfulness, and happiness. As Pascal said, we have nothing to lose and infinity to gain.



As Matt Dillahunty says.....
If true I should never enjoy a good meal after all it ends up in the toilet, a good concert ends, vacations end.....
. Something doesn't track with that logic. WLC sets the bar for God right on the floor in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjHo7qDLuNE
Last edited by Rivendale on Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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