All atheists should be nihilists

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drumdude
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All atheists should be nihilists

Post by drumdude »

DP wrote:gemli: "It's also dishonest to assert that atheists are nihilists. I'm a devout atheist, and so are a number of people of my acquaintance. And all of us are most certainly not nihilists."

Some atheists most certainly are nihilists. And it's arguable that all atheists should , logically and consistently, be nihilists.
Yet again, we see DP using evangelical arguments as if they are applicable to Mormonism. They are not. Mormonism does not believe in a Creator God who created the Universe. This is a necessary component of the evangelical/Christian argument against nihilism.

Mormons need to make a different, much more convoluted argument if they are to justify themselves against nihilism. Being part of a celestial Mary-Kay pyramid scheme doesn't bestow meaning on its own.
doubtingthomas
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by doubtingthomas »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:07 am
They are not. Mormonism does not believe in a Creator God who created the Universe.
I think Mormons are divided on this one.
drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:07 am
Mormons need to make a different, much more convoluted argument if they are to justify themselves against nihilism. Being part of a celestial Mary-Kay pyramid scheme doesn't bestow meaning on its own.
All Mormons believe in eternal life. For Peterson, it's only meaningful if it's eternal.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
huckelberry
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by huckelberry »

drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:07 am
DP wrote:gemli: "It's also dishonest to assert that atheists are nihilists. I'm a devout atheist, and so are a number of people of my acquaintance. And all of us are most certainly not nihilists."

Some atheists most certainly are nihilists. And it's arguable that all atheists should , logically and consistently, be nihilists.
Yet again, we see DP using evangelical arguments as if they are applicable to Mormonism. They are not. Mormonism does not believe in a Creator God who created the Universe. This is a necessary component of the evangelical/Christian argument against nihilism.

Mormons need to make a different, much more convoluted argument if they are to justify themselves against nihilism. Being part of a celestial Mary-Kay pyramid scheme doesn't bestow meaning on its own.
drumdude, Perhaps this could be explored a bit to see if the ideas involved could be seen a bit more. I do not think atheists need to be nihilists but perhaps some people play with the definition to try and trap atheists logically. What is meant with nihilism? Is it that there is no God to control and limit meaning? I am unsure how the creator role is understood would change the question.

What I am actually wondering about is whether a significant number of evangelicals are emotionally nihilist but hide from that by making a rule, God said no nihilism. (I take fear of science and lust for authoritarian political figures to be evidence of nihilism)
drumdude
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by drumdude »

huckelberry wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:50 pm
drumdude wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:07 am


Yet again, we see DP using evangelical arguments as if they are applicable to Mormonism. They are not. Mormonism does not believe in a Creator God who created the Universe. This is a necessary component of the evangelical/Christian argument against nihilism.

Mormons need to make a different, much more convoluted argument if they are to justify themselves against nihilism. Being part of a celestial Mary-Kay pyramid scheme doesn't bestow meaning on its own.
drumdude, Perhaps this could be explored a bit to see if the ideas involved could be seen a bit more. I do not think atheists need to be nihilists but perhaps some people play with the definition to try and trap atheists logically. What is meant with nihilism? Is it that there is no God to control and limit meaning? I am unsure how the creator role is understood would change the question.

What I am actually wondering about is whether a significant number of evangelicals are emotionally nihilist but hide from that by making a rule, God said no nihilism. (I take fear of science and lust for authoritarian political figures to be evidence of nihilism)
My understanding is that it parallels the moral argument. God is the ultimate source of morality, by definition. God has all the attributes necessary to be a foundation of morality, nothing else created by God does.

So it is with meaning. Without God ultimately nothing has eternal meaning. Since God in Mormonism is missing so many of these classical Christian attributes, Mormonism needs to say something like “the Universe has ultimate meaning on its own.”
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Res Ipsa
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Res Ipsa »

I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂
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doubtingthomas
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by doubtingthomas »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm
I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂

Well, it's pretty meaningless if you look at the big picture. Meaning is just an illusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEENEFaVUzU
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Dr Moore
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Dr Moore »

I will posit the opposite as Dan Peterson, and stake out a claim that Christians and Mormons have equal or higher rates of nihilism than atheists do.

My rationale? Simple.

Christianity and Mormonism are both so rife with existential problems of reality (to name a few: deception/gaslighting, failed prophecy, doctrinal contradictions, magic talk, illogical rationalizations for unacceptable behavior such as racism and sexism, and so many blatantly selfish claims of power, authority and knowledge in the name of Jesus) that life itself feels hopeless for those who seek truth by following a logically consistent, scientific framework.

Those Christians and Mormons are socially damned for pushing too far on facts and logic, yet internally damned for staying quietly in the boat. What could be worse than that? I have a small clue, personally having spent the last 7 years navigating the insanely sensitive turns and corners of faith crisis and belief transition. So assuming some meaningful percentage of "believers" also happen to struggle with existential problems created by their inherited systems of belief, those people are trapped in a living hell, surrounded by people who proudly and ruthlessly validate themselves in a cycle of overconfidence and confirmation bias. What a perfect breeding ground for nihilism. Is it any wonder that religious people end up committing the most horrific crimes?

Atheists, meanwhile, follow what Adam Grant refers to as a "rethinking cycle." (see Think Again). It's the scary dogma of "I don't know." Grant's rethinking cycle is pretty straightforward.

Humility >> Doubt >> Curiosity >> Discovery >> and back around to Humility... and around again and again.

Not having all the answers does not equal hopelessness or nihilism. Only prideful and overconfident people would claim so.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by honorentheos »

I recently came across a definition for spirituality I found insightful, proposed by a female chaplain at a children's hospital based on her experiences with what families go though when faced with the unthinkable.

In her experience, spirituality was defined by the level of connection a person has with:

1 - Their community
2 - Their family
3 - Their self
4 - Their body
5 - Something greater

In Mormonism, the Church stands between the individual and all five of these points of connection. They ARE the community. The family is defined by church relationships where even married couples sealed in the temple make commitments that shift the focus of fidelity from one another to the church. Identity is entangled with church and ones body is regulated by the church. And of course the church defines what is acceptable as the greater plan where earth life will be shed for perpetual church life forever and ever, amen.

The Mormon can't conceive of atheism as it is lived by millions of people. They use that term to mean living without the church. People of other faiths have their weaker placebo connections that serve to get them to the afterlife where they can get whatever lesser version of the real deal they've earned. But without church, one can only be adrift without any connections at all...
honorentheos
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by honorentheos »

To add to the above as a bit of a tangent, I suspect it plays into why post-Mormonism looks as it does with the various communities and online forums. One needs help establishing connections when so much root mass gets torn out.
huckelberry
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by huckelberry »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 7:58 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm
I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂

Well, it's pretty meaningless if you look at the big picture. Meaning is just an illusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEENEFaVUzU
doubtingthomas, I do not understand your statement that meaning is just an illusion. I suppose a person might put their value into a certain project or goal which fails. A limited aspect of meaning would turn out to be an illusion. Best not put all ones hope in one basket, especially a basket composed of vanity.

An especially dumb version of meaning is saying it must last forever to have meaning. No it does not.
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