All atheists should be nihilists

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Physics Guy
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Physics Guy »

I've heard and read "nihilism" for years without ever seeming to need to know more, in order to follow the story, than that it was some kind of nothing-ism. One of the less-advertised benefits of even a little classical education is helping you fake your way through intellectual discussions. If you get called on some misconception, "gee, I guess I was confused by the Latin root" will usually save enough face that you can stay in the room.

Just now I finally looked up the term, and apparently nihilism is specifically the belief that life is meaningless. That doesn't help me so much, though, because I'm not sure what "meaning" means. Meaning is mysterious enough when it's just the relationship between a word for a concrete thing and the thing itself, "fire" means fire. What does it mean for life itself to have meaning?

Something good, seemingly. I'm not convinced that people who use terms like "meaning" or "nihilism" really have any much more definite idea, themselves, of what they're talking about. I won't be surprised if arguments boil down to "meaning is good, lasting forever would be good, therefore only things that last forever are meaningful".

It's not that I think that "meaning" must itself be a meaningless word that doesn't refer to anything in particular. I suspect there probably is a real phenomenon to which it could refer aptly. I just have the feeling that people often use the word "meaning" vaguely, without knowing exactly what it means. I don't know, at this point, myself.

If I leave aside the issue of meaning, because I don't know what it means, I can see some value in believing in life after death. Humans have evolved to plan and prepare for the future; we can work cheerfully and well all day long, knowing that the things we have done will be there again when we wake up in the morning. If you really think that you and the people around you will be there again after death, it's easier to keep on working cheerfully and well until your very last breath.

Belief in an afterlife is not the only possible motivation for staying energetic and optimistic beyond middle age. Some people can probably manage it out of sheer existentialist cussedness, simply to spit in the eye of the universe. Anyone who can pull that off, I admire; if there turns out to be an afterlife after all, I'll let them skip ahead of me in the ambrosia line.

I would be a more noble person, no doubt, if I could continue to go extra miles for other people even though I thought we would all soon just wink out forever. Trying hard to be patient with people because I expect to have to keep dealing with them for aeons is a more selfish motivation, for sure. The work itself matters more than our feelings, however. I don't want to rely on my own nobility; I'd rather do the right thing for bad reasons than fail to act well at all, because I tried to do it the hard the way.

I have some quite elderly relatives and I can see that aging is tough. I'm afraid of getting (even more) sour and self-centered as I get (even) older. It will be easier for me to act as I wish I would, I think, if I keep entertaining the thought that we are all still just in kindergarten and that there is still an indefinitely long future for which to build.

It could be true, after all. So why not look on the bright side?
I was a teenager before it was cool.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Gadianton »

A phil Phd friend from a long time ago told me that in today's parlance, "nihilism" is meaninglessness, as PG said, the result of an account of meaning or purpose failing to secure the objective. Nietzsche embraced nihilism explicitly, but I think that's a dated way to use the term. I think it would be more correct to say Nietzsche reimagined meaning, and his new account is highly contrarian in terms of the way Christianity has thought about meaning. I think it might be self-defeating to "embrace nihilism".

When DCP says atheists should be nihilists, I think he correctly uses the term as my friend suggested. He thinks an atheist worldview fails to secure meaning, not that there is no meaning for atheists because after all, there really is a God, and aside from that, atheists may be able to fool themselves and find subjective meaning.

I don't personally believe as an atheist I can have "objective meaning" but I don't think positing God solves the problem. What is "objective meaning" and why is that so important? Bertrand said it was a meaningless question. That's a good way to avoid the problem. I'd be more inclined to find problems with any suggested version of meaning than I would worrying about coming up with a version myself. Clearly we're wired to find things meaningful. DCP is just lucky his wiring doesn't substantially conflict with anything objectively meaningful that his church advocates.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by doubtingthomas »

Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:44 pm
If I leave aside the issue of meaning, because I don't know what it means, I can see some value in believing in life after death. Humans have evolved to plan and prepare for the future; we can work cheerfully and well all day long, knowing that the things we have done will be there again when we wake up in the morning. If you really think that you and the people around you will be there again after death, it's easier to keep on working cheerfully and well until your very last breath.
Would everything else be meaningless? What would be the point of having a family? or the point of having a job, getting a college degree, going out with friends, and taking care of yourself if life after death is infinitely longer? Are families going to exist in the afterlife?

In all honesty, I see no purpose of doing anything if there's an afterlife. I would simply have faith to be saved. Our daily lives wouldn't matter.
Physics Guy wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 2:44 pm
I have some quite elderly relatives and I can see that aging is tough.
That could change thanks to Jeff Bezos, not Jesus Christ.

In the meantime, check out Dr. Brad Stanfield to improve your chances of living longer.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm
I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂
Why would a theist do that? I, for one, would never tell someone what they MUST believe.

I think you might be overstating this.

I would encourage anyone, including an atheist, to find purpose/meaning in life that brings about betterment for themselves and others, however. Would THAT be inappropriate?

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MG
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by drumdude »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:59 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm
I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂
Why would a theist do that? I, for one, would never tell someone what they MUST believe.

I think you might be overstating this.

I would encourage anyone, including an atheist, to find purpose/meaning in life that brings about betterment for themselves and others, however. Would THAT be inappropriate?

Regards,
MG
The opening post, in which Daniel Peterson states:
it's arguable that all atheists should , logically and consistently, be nihilists.
Perhaps you could ask Dan to justify this assertion, since most of us are unwelcome on his blog.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by DrStakhanovite »

The only nihilists that I’ve ever encountered were from ‘The Big Lebowski’.
Image
Nietzsche actually thought nihilism to be the bane of existence that Christianity uniquely fails at addressing; this is what the death of God is all about.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by Res Ipsa »

MG 2.0 wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:59 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 6:12 pm
I’m not sure I’ve met an atheist who was an actual nihilist. But I’ve learned to be skeptical towards theists who tell me what I must believe. 😂
Why would a theist do that? I, for one, would never tell someone what they MUST believe.

I think you might be overstating this.

I would encourage anyone, including an atheist, to find purpose/meaning in life that brings about betterment for themselves and others, however. Would THAT be inappropriate?

Regards,
MG
Given that it’s not directed at theists, I wouldn’t expect you to notice it. But I’ve heard it quite a bit from various theists over the years. Note that even Dr. Peterson implied that I must be a nihilist or else I’m intellectually dishonest.

I don’t think you appreciate the extent to which many Christian Theists have it drilled into their heads that without God, life has no meaning. It’s a false binary, of course. It’s disproved by the millions of atheists who do find meaning in life. I go even farther and take the position that I find meaning in my life exactly the way they do.

I don’t understand why you are asking me about “appropriate” speech.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by MG 2.0 »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:58 pm

I don’t think you appreciate the extent to which many Christian Theists have it drilled into their heads that without God, life has no meaning. It’s a false binary, of course. It’s disproved by the millions of atheists who do find meaning in life. I go even farther and take the position that I find meaning in my life exactly the way they do.
I don’t think I’ve considered ‘no meaning’ being part and parcel of being an atheist. I think of environmentalists. Abortion rights activists. Work/career enthusiasts. Charity and nonprofit NGO careerists. Politicians. And a myriad other groups of one kind or another that find existential purpose/meaning in their cause/work.

No God required.

Regards,
MG
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by canpakes »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:58 pm
Note that even Dr. Peterson implied that I must be a nihilist or else I’m intellectually dishonest.

Rather, that would seem to be an intellectually dishonest position for Peterson to take.

Unless Peterson’s version of our exmortal spirits has them suddenly gaining the ability to survive the heat death of the universe’s eventual Big Freeze, then their ultimate fate matches what the most dreary nihilist anticipates.
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Re: All atheists should be nihilists

Post by dastardly stem »

If we continue some sort of existence after we die, I don't know anything about it. Every explanation of it I've heard makes it all sound sucky to me. I don't want to continue if I know others are suffering eternally or others for some arbitrary reason get annihilated. If there's a god and he wants me to live for a better place after this world, then he's given me nothing but reason to object to it. What the hell is existing forever anyway? IS there really existence without time? Everything we see demonstrates there's no existence. It's not as if there is spirit in us, causing our consciousness. Once we die, everything stops working. It appears our brains function on account of physical processes. We damage our brain and it limits function. We die and everything goes out. Nothing escapes and every atom remains, the functioning simply stops. I suppose there's a certain harsh sound to that reality, but it also feels a bit more courageous to be like, "yeah we die mother fu...ers. That's it. Let's live until it hits us. Live for each other. Live as if we can help the future." What other option do we have? Pretending the make believe is real because it comforts us? I don't get it. Because we think we're better than others and god-dammit someone better, in the end, tell us that? To think magical things happen? To think there's a monstrous character controlling everything? Every religious offer is proposing the worst kind of hell it seems to me.

I'd say with that, if there's a God, he certainly doesn't want me following him. Those feelings of blah I feel when I get the different religious persuasions coming along and trying to convince me doesn't give me an overall feeling of meaninglessness. Imagining there's a magical character skipping from galaxy to galaxy singing songs of self-praise sounds childish and idiotic. Imagining there's a dude watching us as if he's watching tv perpetually while sitting in some other sphere of existence sounds waiting for the day to tell us each how foolish we were for not knowing something we couldn't possible know, feels like a sadistic game. Accepting their proposals feels meaningless, because what they propose is irrational.

Anyway, I enjoy seeing religionists telling everyone they are useless or meaningless if they don't believe the unbelievable, hoping to shame them into going along with it. Nah...I'd rather play it out in real time. If something happens afterward, I suppose I'll take it when it comes.
“Every one of us is, in the cosmic perspective, precious. If a human disagrees with you, let him live. In a hundred billion galaxies, you will not find another.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
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