God is evil, or likes it, or enjoys it whatever

[malkie]

I’m always confused with threads like this. Is it about God or about God as known in Mormonism?

The threads meant to discuss the belief of god, from any perspective.

But is it true or not that many of the counter-arguments to reasoned belief in the god of the Old Testament/New Testament/Koran apply at least as well to the god of Mormonism (and to any of the multitude of gods that humans have ever believed in)?

[msnobody]

I'd suppose if there were a God as often defined by people of faith in our western world, he'd have to enjoy pain and suffering that we mortals go through. And I suppose as poorly defined as he often is--a description of nothing and yet everything all at once--he may also enjoy some of the joys some people get to experience as well. After all if we take the God who is worshipped by the many millions, the guy in the Bible, he's not only a God who forgives sin for at least some, he's also the one who commands and inspires war, including the murder and rape of many. He's the pissy guy who ignores many believers for being the type that "builds their house on sand" and yet he is also the guy who condemns those who think it good practice to steer clear of prostitutes and sinners. He's the kind one who wants to fix a few, but he's also the infinitely angry one whose always ready to condemn anyone who doesn't believe.

These days though, believers prefer the God who loves everyone and in discussing his possibility they ignore the teachings in the Bible or the traditional beliefs about him. As it turns out the best way to convince another of him is to get others to picture the best thing ever and imagine he's the only possible source of the good things in your mind. But this newer description of God makes me wonder what it is we must imagine. After all people still suffer. I suppose we must conclude if there is a great and magnificent one, better than all else, loving and kind to the nth degree, he doesn't care much if people suffer mortally. He may or may not bless them later. And to him, our little existence here must not mean much. It's a mere blip on the radar of our eternal existences. ANd yet, somehow we've convinced ourselves we must believe in him. We must do what he wants now, else he'll ruin us forever.

Doesn't an imagined God, assumed by most, suggest a level of selfishness or narcissism? I don't mean to be condemning per se, but it was the type of thought that sent me reeling on the matter. I don't see why the idea is a good one. I suppose if there is a God and he continues to go to extensive effort to hide himself from us, then it feels better to me to live in the mindset he's not really there. I suppose in a pascal wager type of way, as looney as that reasoning is, it may condemn us eternally. But if he's really good, isn't it better to work for good now, then to hope for a reward later? The latter feels like a selfish move, the former not so much.

This is quite a weighty post and one I’ve been pondering for days. I suppose we wouldn’t have these conversations if God had not placed eternity in the hearts of men, or created us in his image. I’ve been reading Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, which speaks of God’s heavenly hosts or divine council; some fallen and some not, and how God allows free will not only with man, but also with the heavenly hosts. In the book, he discusses the Fall in Genesis chapter 3, Nephilim in chapter 6, and the Tower of Babel in chapter 11 and how each of these escalated rebellions against God resulted in proliferation of depravity.

I certainly don’t think God enjoys seeing his creation suffer. He has allowed it, however. In a sense, in our own rebellion, we too have allowed it. We are told that this life is like a mist as compared to all eternity. The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 8, tells us that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us, and that creation groans for redemption. I hear this groaning in your post. I would suggest that the suffering and evil in the world grieves us because we are created in the image of God, and are to be imagers of him in the world.

We say that God isn’t fair, but it certainly isn’t fair that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, took upon himself God’s wrath for our sins. However, it was necessary as it is God’s plan to redeem us. One day evil will be eradication and there will be no more death and suffering for us. We will live as God initially intended.

I think it is more that we go to extensive futile effort to try to hide ourselves from God. He tells us that He isn’t far from each one of us. To find him, we have come to the realization of who we are, and we must surrender our heart and will to Him. There is a spiritual battle going on for the souls of men in this unseen realm.

I guess that’s all I have to say for now.

[dastardly stem]

The threads meant to discuss the belief of god, from any perspective.

But is it true or not that many of the counter-arguments to reasoned belief in the god of the Old Testament/New Testament/Koran apply at least as well to the god of Mormonism (and to any of the multitude of gods that humans have ever believed in)?

I imagine so, do you have any examples in mind?

[malkie]

But is it true or not that many of the counter-arguments to reasoned belief in the god of the Old Testament/New Testament/Koran apply at least as well to the god of Mormonism (and to any of the multitude of gods that humans have ever believed in)?

I imagine so, do you have any examples in mind?

No, I don't. I wasn't disagreeing with you, stem - I could equally well have replied directly to msnobody.

[dastardly stem]

No, I don't. I wasn't disagreeing with you, stem - I could equally well have replied directly to msnobody.

I didn't take you as disagreeing. Sorry for the miscommunication. I was just curious what you might have had in mind. But if you had nothing specific, no big deal.

[dastardly stem]

I appreciate your response, msnobody. It's good to have some thoughtful engagement.

This is quite a weighty post and one I’ve been pondering for days. I suppose we wouldn’t have these conversations if God had not placed eternity in the hearts of men, or created us in his image. I’ve been reading Unseen Realm by Michael Heiser, which speaks of God’s heavenly hosts or divine council; some fallen and some not, and how God allows free will not only with man, but also with the heavenly hosts. In the book, he discusses the Fall in Genesis chapter 3, Nephilim in chapter 6, and the Tower of Babel in chapter 11 and how each of these escalated rebellions against God resulted in proliferation of depravity.

If genesis chapter 3 and 6 represent myths not likely events in history, then I'm not sure this helps a great deal. And how would someone from that era know if these events in particular resulted in the proliferation of depravity, whatever that might mean, or if the proliferation would have happened anyway? I'm glad you brought up free will because this seems to speak to that as well, how could we possibly know if something would really be different, given something other than what did happen, happen? I don't see how we could know.

I certainly don’t think God enjoys seeing his creation suffer. He has allowed it, however.

I struggle to see how there is a difference here. If God wants us to suffer so we can, what, come out stronger, then it appears He enjoys it, to whatever extent. We need it. He wants us to do good (?) right? If the magnificent all knowing and all powerful one allows something, it only stands to reason he wills that something, which speaks to what he really wants or enjoys, I'd think.

In a sense, in our own rebellion, we too have allowed it. We are told that this life is like a mist as compared to all eternity. The Apostle Paul in Romans chapter 8, tells us that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed in us, and that creation groans for redemption. I hear this groaning in your post. I would suggest that the suffering and evil in the world grieves us because we are created in the image of God, and are to be imagers of him in the world.

It could be, I suppose. But then I struggle to see the good in it.

We say that God isn’t fair, but it certainly isn’t fair that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, took upon himself God’s wrath for our sins.

It's more than fair. We, after all, don't know what we're doing, as God would have it. If we sin, we are likely too foolish to realize why it's bad or how its bad. It seems God should be forgiving us whether Jesus was sacrificed or not. We're encouraged if we're forgiven freely without sacrifice, it seems to me. WE're just learning and growing, apparently...why would God get upset with us for our mistakes?

However, it was necessary as it is God’s plan to redeem us. One day evil will be eradication and there will be no more death and suffering for us. We will live as God initially intended.

If evil is eradicated does that mean we would no longer have free will? Also if it's God's plan to redeem some of us, it must also be God's plan to humiliate and completely and utterly destroy us or ruin us, at least some of us. God seems rather conflicted, no?

I think it is more that we go to extensive futile effort to try to hide ourselves from God. He tells us that He isn’t far from each one of us. To find him, we have come to the realization of who we are, and we must surrender our heart and will to Him. There is a spiritual battle going on for the souls of men in this unseen realm.

I guess that’s all I have to say for now.

If true, it seems like if he really cared, then we'd be without reason to not believe. Instead we have tons of reasons to not believe, as evidenced by thinkers who fail to believe.

[huckelberry]

....... If God wants us to suffer so we can, what, come out stronger, then it appears He enjoys it, to whatever extent. We need it. He wants us to do good (?) right? If the magnificent all knowing and all powerful one allows something, it only stands to reason he wills that something, which speaks to what he really wants or enjoys, I'd think.
........


subquotes are from Msnobody

We say that God isn’t fair, but it certainly isn’t fair that God, in the person of Jesus Christ, took upon himself God’s wrath for our sins.

It's more than fair. We, after all, don't know what we're doing, as God would have it. If we sin, we are likely too foolish to realize why it's bad or how its bad. It seems God should be forgiving us whether Jesus was sacrificed or not. We're encouraged if we're forgiven freely without sacrifice, it seems to me. We're just learning and growing, apparently...why would God get upset with us for our mistakes?

However, it was necessary as it is God’s plan to redeem us. One day evil will be eradication and there will be no more death and suffering for us. We will live as God initially intended.

If evil is eradicated does that mean we would no longer have free will? Also if it's God's plan to redeem some of us, it must also be God's plan to humiliate and completely and utterly destroy us or ruin us, at least some of us. God seems rather conflicted, no?
.........

Stem you sound as though you think sin is some ignorant mistake like going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday like you are supposed to. I do not think that sort of sin is a significant enough matter to relate to the suffering in the world.

I can see the point you started with (I didn't copy) that certain Bible stories about evil starting in the world are not very clear or complete descriptions of what happened. I feel sure that history was much more complicated and many events happened. The Bible stories are pointers toward the sense that people are not right in a serious way. Perhaps more recent events would be a good reminder. Perhaps consider lynching of black people. Perhaps the whole treatment of African Americans. Perhaps consider wounded knee. A look at brutality in war, we have one to watch now and it is not pretty. Consider crime violence rape. consider bullying children or sexual abuse of children. How long do I have to make this list to present the idea that the sin God is concerned with is not some stupid opps I didn't mean it?? Forgiving sin is a serious matter that requires both suffering and recreation of what has been damaged on the part of the people who do it. We must do that with each other. God is doing that with us.

I do not think Jesus suffering will help people one bit if they do not do their own forgiving as well.(I think Jesus was very clear about that) I do not think we can complete the recreation of what has been destroyed without Gods foundation.

[dastardly stem]

Stem you sound as though you think sin is some ignorant mistake like going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday like you are supposed to. I do not think that sort of sin is a significant enough matter to relate to the suffering in the world.

I'm not sure what you mean here. How do I sound as if sin is some ignorant mistake? I was more along the lines of sin happens, often, or so it seems, as people go along with what others are doing. The story of Jesus being crucified comes to mind. The crowd, apparently, gathers when people are killed for their sins against society. Jesus, in his case, declares, forgive them for they know not what they do. I figure we all kind of know not what we do. We go along with what we think is good, and other such things. I don't think "sin" is a good way to describe it, but I'm going with Christianity here.

I can see the point you started with (I didn't copy) that certain Bible stories about evil starting in the world are not very clear or complete descriptions of what happened. I feel sure that history was much more complicated and many events happened. The Bible stories are pointers toward the sense that people are not right in a serious way. Perhaps more recent events would be a good reminder. Perhaps consider lynching of black people. Perhaps the whole treatment of African Americans. Perhaps consider wounded knee. A look at brutality in war, we have one to watch now and it is not pretty. Consider crime violence rape. consider bullying children or sexual abuse of children. How long do I have to make this list to present the idea that the sin God is concerned with is not some stupid opps I didn't mean it?? Forgiving sin is a serious matter that requires both suffering and recreation of what has been damaged on the part of the people who do it. We must do that with each other. God is doing that with us.

I'm not sure "suffering" has anything to do with forgiving sin. I get that is needed on Christianity. I just don't buy it. But yes, I agree, the types of things you describe is what I was going for in terms of sin. Those and much much more. Like not believing. And again, one must wonder why God ignores many believers, as Matt 7:22-23 suggest. Not that he ignores them after judgment but that he always had them on ignore, apparently knowing they wouldn't believe the right way before they started. It doesn't make much sense to compare sexual abuse of children to believing but not believing in the right way. I get most Christians don't accept Jesus' teaching here, but some do. Many defend it. They seem to think a hypocritical believer or a weak believer who builds his house on sand deserves eternal scorn, or something. To me it makes no sense. On Christianity, suffering in this world is one thing--but the real suffering awaits the believers who don't believe correctly, and the unbelievers after this world, apparently. But, in the mean time, many unbelievers and believers alike suffer in this world, through no fault of their own. Natural disasters hit, but perhaps a bigger cause is the times and places they live in (natural disasters included, but war, despotism etc).

I do not think Jesus suffering will help people one bit if they do not do their own forgiving as well.(I think Jesus was very clear about that) I do not think we can complete the recreation of what has been destroyed without Gods foundation.

Most people who have forgiven others in this world have done so without a thought of Jesus. That is in the history of mankind, many billions of people have forgiven, most knew nothing of Jesus at all. One must wonder what is the point of Jesus at all, on such a thought? Why must we assume a God lives or that he needed to see his Son sacrificed for forgiveness to take place? God needing violence in order to forgive someone for not believing correctly sounds like something (I guess), but apparently he won't forgive those who believe in Jesus incorrectly anyway. He reserves forgiveness to those who believe correctly all because He had his own Son killed in mortality? But, His Son, knowing he was already forgiven and would be crowned with eternal glory for his own death and torture, didn't seem to sacrifice at all. he had to do a one time "okay, let it happen" in order to gain eternal glory. That seems to make his sacrifice into self-service so he could then have everything, way more than anyone else who seemingly arbitrarily gets saved will ever get, and of course, eternally more than all of those who are never saved.

I don't think the logic of Christianity holds up. I also don't think it describes a good God at all. One who may delight in saving some, but also then must be said to delight in eternal torture and condemnation for others, perhaps most others.

[MG 2.0]

On Christianity, suffering in this world is one thing--but the real suffering awaits the believers who don't believe correctly, and the unbelievers after this world, apparently.

I don’t believe this to be the case within the scope and teachings of the restored gospel. Within traditional Christianity you are probably correct.

But, in the mean time, many unbelievers and believers alike suffer in this world, through no fault of their own. Natural disasters hit, but perhaps a bigger cause is the times and places they live in (natural disasters included, but war, despotism etc).

True. And, as you know, this is a major contributor to killing faith in many folks.

And increasing faith in others.

Regards,
MG

[dastardly stem]

I don’t believe this to be the case within the scope and teachings of the restored gospel. Within traditional Christianity you are probably correct.

It always seemed to me Mormon exaltation was eternal suffering. When they taught me that loved ones or even other randoms weren't going to be exalted, but would end up with less, I saw it as pain and suffering. Who wants to be exalted above another? That would be hell to be put on eternal pedestal given all things while others were condemned to lower orders? I assume many Mormon believers don't care about that. Be that as it may. I also recall being taught two things about lower kingdoms--they are hell and they aren't half bad. It was true on Mormonism that there had to be a hell, scripture required it. And it was true, like the quoted verse in Matt 7 suggests, that there are believers whom God would not accept--indeed if Jesus is to believed they were eternally ignored by God. If the lower kingdoms were not a place to suffer--knowing there could be more--one must wonder why that type of teaching was used throughout my youth to keep me faithful, as they say? If the lower kingdoms are not meant as a place of suffering how does that square with scriptural teaching? It doesn't seem to fit, at all. Are the lower kingdoms supposed to be a kind of hell in which we suffer eternally because we didn't do enough or weren't faithful enough in our lives to reach the pedestal and such regret then haunts us forever? Beats me, but as I suggested, religion or belief in God is all pretty unreasonable anyway.

True. And, as you know, this is a major contributor to killing faith in many folks.

And increasing faith in others.

Regards,
MG

And yet, the reasoning for belief fails.