Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 9053
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:19 pm
Himars w/tungsten balls:

https://youtu.be/NMPscap0_us

I can’t even. It fills me with dread just watching the video.

- Doc
Welp. It looks like they’re being used now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/commen ... ath_m30a1/

When these punch through the metal skin of a vehicle they deform and start to yaw, pinging around inside compartments. I’m not sure what caliber each tungsten ball is, but I’m not sure it matters if you’re a tank commander or driver since your space is limited anyway. I think you’re essentially an emulsified peanut inside a shell. Also, if I had to guess this particular vehicle was probably on the perimeter of the kill zone based on the spacing of the holes.

Things are not going to go well for the Russians. I don’t know how many bodies they think they can throw against this sort of thing, but at some point, especially now that they have a million or so young Russians in other countries having access to an open Internet, word will get back to the motherland and recruiting/mobilization will be next to impossible.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Moksha
God
Posts: 5932
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 am
Location: Koloburbia

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Moksha »

Things will be way different when the million Russian mobilized army arrives and they start to use short-range nuclear weapons.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
User avatar
Everybody Wang Chung
God
Posts: 1666
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:52 am

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Oct 12, 2022 8:15 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sat Oct 08, 2022 5:19 pm
Himars w/tungsten balls:

https://youtu.be/NMPscap0_us

I can’t even. It fills me with dread just watching the video.

- Doc
Welp. It looks like they’re being used now:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ukraine/commen ... ath_m30a1/

When these punch through the metal skin of a vehicle they deform and start to yaw, pinging around inside compartments. I’m not sure what caliber each tungsten ball is, but I’m not sure it matters if you’re a tank commander or driver since your space is limited anyway. I think you’re essentially an emulsified peanut inside a shell. Also, if I had to guess this particular vehicle was probably on the perimeter of the kill zone based on the spacing of the holes.

Things are not going to go well for the Russians. I don’t know how many bodies they think they can throw against this sort of thing, but at some point, especially now that they have a million or so young Russians in other countries having access to an open Internet, word will get back to the motherland and recruiting/mobilization will be next to impossible.

- Doc

Good Lord! Those tungsten balls went right through that metal armour like it was butter. That has to have a huge psychological impact on Russian troops. No matter how much metal armour they have, it isn’t going to be enough protection.
"I'm on paid sabbatical from BYU in exchange for my promise to use this time to finish two books."

Daniel C. Peterson, 2014
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Physics Guy »

I can’t tell exactly what kind of vehicle that is, but it’s not a tank. Looks like some kind of truck.

The little HIMARS slugs won’t penetrate armor. You could drive through the burst of one of these munitions in a tank, and it would just be a hard, loud rain on the roof.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
Chap
God
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 8:42 am
Location: On the imaginary axis

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Chap »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:34 am
I can’t tell exactly what kind of vehicle that is, but it’s not a tank. Looks like some kind of truck.

The little HIMARS slugs won’t penetrate armor. You could drive through the burst of one of these munitions in a tank, and it would just be a hard, loud rain on the roof.
It really depends on what you call 'armor', doesn't it? HIMARS is an anti-infantry, anti-artillery weapon, not an anti-tank weapon.
HIMARS is intended to engage and defeat artillery, air defence concentrations, trucks, and light armour and personnel carriers, as well as support troop and supply concentrations. The system launches its weapons and moves away from the area at high speed before enemy forces locate the launch site.
See https://www.army-technology.com/projects/himars/

The Ukrainians showed early on that they had quite good anti-tank weapons ... But their urgent need has been to counter the Russian use of heavy artillery bombardments at long range. HIMARS is a good answer to those, and to quite a few other things too.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Physics Guy »

The line from your link about defeating "light armor and personnel carriers" seems to refer to the original cluster bomb HIMARS rockets, not to these "180 thousand little slugs" versions. About the tungsten carbide balls weapon specifically, I've only seen statements about being effective against thin-skinned vehicles.

The advantage of the "neo-shrapnel" design, over standard fragmenting shells, is supposed to be that the many little slugs fly farther than tumbling irregular chunks of metal. Tungsten carbide is also much more dense than steel, and even quite a bit more dense than lead, so the tungsten carbide balls are not slowed down as quickly by air resistance and stay lethal out to longer distance. They're still not going to be heavy enough to go through armor, though.

The lightest weapon that can usually penetrate APC armor is a .50 caliber machine gun. Those bullets may have roughly the same diameter as these HIMARS pellets, but instead of being round, they're a couple of inches long, so a lot heavier, and they travel at around Mach 2. A lot of military vehicles are armored more lightly on top than on the sides or front, but the main purpose of APCs is to let infantry move through artillery fire, so they can't be too thin on top.

So I'd be surprised if this newer HIMARS round with the many little balls was really effective against any kind of armored vehicles. Having high accuracy over a really long range does make HIMARS an impressive weapon, though. If the Ukrainians could get accurate spotting of Russian artillery, launch some HIMARS rockets quickly before the Russian guns moved, and land some of the single-warhead HIMARS rockets on or close to the Russian armored self-propelled howitzers, that would indeed make a huge difference in this war, I would think.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
DrW
Priest
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:25 pm

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by DrW »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Oct 13, 2022 5:34 am
The little HIMARS slugs won’t penetrate armor. You could drive through the burst of one of these munitions in a tank, and it would just be a hard, loud rain on the roof.
Although tungsten is dense and hard, the small HIMAR shot simply does not have enough kinetic energy to pierce heavy armor. The kinetic energy of a projectile is equal to 1/2 times its mass times the square of its velocity (KE = 1/2 mv^2).

The most successful armor-piercing munitions use high-density, high-velocity penetrators with a small cross-section to concentrate a large amount of energy onto a small area at the target. These munitions rely on kinetic energy alone to pierce armor.

Heavy armor-piercing rounds use strong high-density metals such as depleted uranium or tungsten as the penetrator component. The muzzle velocity of the 120 mm armor-piercing sabot rounds used by the M1 Abrams and other NATO tank main guns is about 4,000 ft /sec (1,700 m/s) or 3,500 mph. The weight of the penetrator rod is 56 pounds (25 kg)*.

Depleted uranium (U238) has a density of 19 grams per cubic centimeter (g/cm^3). The density of tungsten is about the same. Lead is 11 g/cm^3. For comparison, solid ice is just less than 1 g/cm^3.

The DU penetrator of the Sabot round used as a 120 mm anti-tank munition is a long, thin rod with a point in front and stabilizing fins on the back. After it leaves the smoothbore gun tube, the aluminum encasement (see image below) breaks away leaving the penetrator to hit the target.

Image

These rounds can get the job done with a single hit. The image below shows a tank turret that was struck by a 120 mm sabot round. From the outside, it doesn’t look too bad. Inside the turret is a different story.

When the penetrator rod hit the turret, the kinetic energy released essentially melted the DU metal, as well as some of the armor with which it came into contact. A metal splash pattern can be seen burned into the outside of the turret.

The white-hot metal, along with the solid steel armor shrapnel that spalled off the inside walls of the turret, incinerated the combustible material inside the tank, including the crew. The flying metal left holes in every piece of equipment in the crew compartment except for the breach of the main gun which is a large rectangular steel block.

Image

The two soldiers in the image below are holding 120 mm armor-piercing depleted uranium (DU) sabot rounds for their M1A2 Abrams tank behind them. The encasement is aluminum and breaks away once the round leaves the barrel.

Image

Both the 120 mm anti-tank round, and the 30 mm round (shown below) used by the autocannon on the A-10 Thunderbolt (Warthog), use depleted uranium as the penetrator.


Image



The 30 mm GAU/8 7-barrel autocannon shown below on the A-10 has a rate of fire of 3,900 rounds per minute. Needless to say, the weapon is fired in short bursts. When the gun platform is moving at, say, 200 mph, there isn't more than a few seconds on a tank-sized target. Depending on the angle of incidence, the 30 mm armor-piercing round can punch holes in most tank armor, especially the thinner turret top armor found on most main battle tanks as well as that normally used on armored personnel carriers.

Image

The tank shown below was hit by 30 mm DU fire from an A-10. The heavier armor in the front of the tank was breached, as were the turret and main gun tube.


Image

30 mm DU rounds also punched through the armor of what looks like an APC. Depending on the range and angle of incidence, modern APC armor can usually stand up to .50 cal armor-piercing rounds. For example, the armor on the Bradley fighting vehicle was specified to resist armor-piercing rounds slightly larger than .50 cal at 500 meters. When it comes to APC armor, however, the 30 mm DU rounds will get the job done.

Image

_____________________________________________________________________________________


*By comparison to a 120 mm sabot round, the HIMARS tungsten shot, which appears to be 4 to 6 mm in diameter, would weigh a few grams or so at most. As a rough approximation, assume that the impact velocity is the same for both projectiles, and give the HIMARS shot a factor of 5 or so for the larger cross-section of the Sabot penetrator. To get an estimate of the relative impact energy per square inch of the two projectiles, just compare the masses adjusted for the cross-section. The difference in armor-piercing capability becomes apparent.
______________

ETA 1.

While working in Kuwait, a colleague from Sikorsky found out that I had been a tanker in the military. He invited me to spend a Friday afternoon with him at the boneyard for Iraqi (read Russian) armor recovered from the Desert Storm battlefield. It took some time but we eventually found a tank with its turret still on the hull. There were two clean GAU/8 holes in the turret. No other damage was visible from outside the tank.

"Take a look inside", he suggested. I opened the hatch and the scene was pretty much as described for the tank shown above. While there were two neat 30 mm holes from an A-10 attack on the outside, on the inside of the turret the armor had spalled off over an area of several square feet. The paint had been burned off of every surface. The interior was now rusted from the intense fire and there were oddly shaped jagged shrapnel holes in nearly every interior surface except for the breach block. "In the world of aviation", he said, "tanks are targets."

_________________________
ETA 2.
Ukraine could have had all the A-10 Warthogs that they could possibly fly or use for spare parts, but declined. As described earlier, they opted instead for late-block F-16s and F-15s. ("When you care enough to send the very best", I guess.)

_______________________________
ETA 3.
It goes without saying that the effects inside the tank turret from the 25kg penetrator of a 120 Sabot round would not be the same as those from a 30 mm DU round in which the penetrator weighs less than 1 kg. (KE=1/2 mv^2)

The tank in the Kuwait boneyard had been hit by two 30 MM rounds and the damage described inside was mainly from spalling armor fragments. The tank in the image in that post had been hit by a 120 mm Sabot penetrator. I have not personally seen the results of a 120 mm Sabot round hit, but have been told that any identification of the crew members would have been impossible since the bodies were essentially "liquified".
Last edited by DrW on Fri Oct 14, 2022 12:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
User avatar
Physics Guy
God
Posts: 1575
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:40 am
Location: on the battlefield of life

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Physics Guy »

Apart from general physics background I have some more specific military knowledge from my own few years as reserve infantry and from my father's course at the Royal Military College of Science in Shrivenham (England). This last post from DrW agrees with all I know on this subject. In particular the spalling effect of even a pinhole penetration, to kill the crew with blown-off bits of interior metal, is also something that I had understood to be important. Gruesome as it all is, my residual army geek has been really interested in DrW's pictures.

I can maybe add the third-hand story, from my father's time in the Middle East in the early 70's, that Israelis reported defeating quite a few Soviet tanks with .50 caliber machine gun fire. Nothing got through the armour, but the noise terrified the crew into abandoning their vehicles. No different groups of human beings are braver or smarter than others on average, but some are systematically better trained or led better. Real people drive these things, and so the vehicle is limited by human training and by human morale.

Anyway, if anybody is wondering whether DrW is just an internet blowhard on this subject, I can say that he seems to know more than I do, so his claim to armour experience seems to me to check out.
I was a teenager before it was cool.
User avatar
Kishkumen
God
Posts: 6197
Joined: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:37 pm
Location: Cassius University

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by Kishkumen »

Thank you gents for your enlightening posts. The value you bring to this board is much appreciated. I learn so much from you all every day.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
User avatar
DrW
Priest
Posts: 297
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 9:25 pm

Re: Mopologist William Schryver Continues His Descent Into Madness

Post by DrW »

Egg Carton Armor and "Jack-in-the-Box” Tanks

An important difference in armor operations between Desert Storm and Ukraine is that the Russian tanks used by Iraq in Desert Storm did not have explosive reactive armor (ERA). Russian tanks in Ukraine do have ERA, after a fashion, which is somewhat effective against chemical explosive munitions such as rocket-propelled grenades (RPG) and high explosive anti-tank (HEAT) rounds. ERA has little effect against kinetic munitions, especially the 120 mm Sabot round.

Egg Carton ERA
The blocks or packets seen attached to the Russian tanks in Ukraine are assumed to be explosive reactive armor. The idea is that when these are hit by an incoming explosive projectile, they will explode outward, blunting the force of the incoming projectile and spreading the energy over a larger area, thus reducing the chance of an armor breach. The assumed ERA can be seen on the turrets and sometimes attached to the track skirts as shown below. While most of what appears to be ERA blocks are probably just that, now and then it does not turn out to be the case.


Image


Imagine a Russian tank commander's surprise (or did he know already) when he happens to see that his "ERA bags" are filled with egg cartons - and empty egg cartons at that. To be fair, the Russians claim that these packets or bags were intended to hold "soft armor", which they clarified is sand held in place by segmented plastic containers. It was claimed that these 'sandbags' would help disperse the force of an incoming explosive projectile.

Jack in the Box Tanks
Russian tank turrets separated from their hulls with their supposed ERA packets still intact are a common site in Ukraine (see below). Russians believed that a low tank silhouette, making the tank a smaller target, was important in battle. One consequence of this approach is that the main gun ammunition is stored in a carrousel situated in the turret basket.

In the larger US M1 Abrams tank, ammunition is stored in an isolated “bustle” space behind a blast door in the rear of the turret. Should the ammunition store be detonated, the bustle has a sacrificial blow-out panel that directs the blast away from the crew.

The carousel in the Russian tanks is used with an autoloader, thus eliminating the need for a crew member to load the main gun. While fine in theory, it turns out that a human is only marginally slower than the autoloader, and much more reliable. Autoloaders can malfunction forcing the gunner to leave his post and clear the jam.

Image

Here is the problem with that design. Man-portable anti-tank weapons like the US Javelin and the NATO NLAW, which "pop up" before contact and attack the thinner armor on the top of the tank turret, can breach the armor and detonate the rounds in the autoloader carousel.

As shown in the video link below, the near-simultaneous explosion of the carrousel ammunition instantly kills the crew and can send the tank turret and main gun assembly (as shown above) a hundred feet or more into the air.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18540513/ ... ike-video/

This oft-repeated scenario has resulted in a Russian tank being referred to as a “jack in the box”. Earlier in the war, the Russians believed that installing metal cages on top of the turret to detonate the Javelin rounds before they hit the armor would protect the tank. These were ineffective.

Thousands of Russian tanks and other armored vehicles have been lost so far in the war due to out-of-date designs, poor maintenance, poor leadership, inadequate training, and low troop morale. After collecting and fixing up the tanks abandoned by the Russians during the Kharkiv counter-offensive, the Ukrainian Army had more operational Russian tanks than they had at the beginning of the war. More than half of Ukraine's tank inventory now consists of Russian equipment captured since February 24, 2022.

_______________________________

While not in the fight in Ukraine, the upgraded M1A2 (SEPV3) Abrams main battle tank would dominate Russian armor on the battlefield (as would some other modern NATO tanks). The Russians know it and so does Poland, which just ordered 250 of them for delivery in 2025.

The M1 Abrams is powered by a gas turbine instead of a diesel engine and has a crew of 4 (commander, gunner, loader, driver) instead of 3 as preferred by the Russians. The Abrams gun equilibration, fire control, and targeting optics are sophisticated to the point that it can hit a tank-sized target at a range of up to 4,000 yards while moving along at up to 40 mph. The effective range of the 120 mm smoothbore gun is more than 4 km. The Rheinmetall patented 120 mm smoothbore main gun on the Abrams is ideal for firing Sabot rounds and is used by several other NATO countries.
Last edited by DrW on Sat Oct 15, 2022 2:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
"Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous." (David Hume)
"Errors in science are learning opportunities and are corrected when better data become available." (DrW)
Post Reply